Time to re-evaluate?

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 08 Mar 2018, 16:54

I'm posting this with realism in mind and not negativity so apologies if it comes across that way but i was thinking about how many ex league clubs had actually dropped into regional football in say the past 30 or 40 years and subsequently managed to claw their way back into the football league. I don't have the stats and i'm sure aficionado's of the game at this level such as Merse, Jeff et al will have a greater idea but i'm guessing one maybe? Accrington? Although not sure if they went bust and reformed?

Of course there are the likes of AFC Wimbledon who went bust, reformed and are now in the 3rd tier but they were perhaps a one off. A reformed and transformed club with some great backing and support meaning they could sustain a tilt every season at promotion regardless of league.

The highest ranking of the other bust and reformed clubs such as Chester and Halifax are near the bottom of the NL and perenially struggling along with having serious financial difficulties. So, maybe history is against Torquay United and when the axe falls on it's NL status in a few weeks time, the club (if it still continues to exist) is set for a long, long, long stint out of the football league and without a serious backer / investor surrounded by serious football people is it time to accept that league football at Plainmoor will never happen again in many fans lifetime?

History suggests that once you've dropped to a certain level, you ain't coming back in a hurry if ever.

Is it time to re-evaluate the expectations everyone has as fans and accept that regional football is the natural level of the football club in the absence of any significant investment and in the absence of a phoenix club reformed and propelled up the leagues in swift time by a significant number of people?

If so then how do you individually even begin to accept that Torquay United are likely to be a part time regional club for many, many years to come?

Will future seasons to come of regional football, lower crowds and income with no hope of ever becoming a league club again soon become the straw that breaks the camels back, if it hasn't already, and signify a near collapse of the regular supporter base?

Then what?

More questions than answers i guess but it just hit me today when i was thinking about it just how many ex league clubs have dropped to such a level and returned within a fairly reasonable time frame if at all and i can only think of Accrington and even that might be wrong.

The non league scene too is now getting ultra competitive with many clubs lower than TUFC having investment and grand plans for the future so that makes the climate even more difficult.

Does anyone see a way back or is it to be expected that if the club survived then the next 20 or so years at least are to spent around regional footy and at best the lower reaches of the NL?

Do fans have to accept this as something that cannot be changed and jack it in altogether or continue attending due to being content with watching regional football or is there something we can do about it?

stefano · Post by **stefano** » 08 Mar 2018, 17:11

Yorkieandy wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 16:54 Of course there are the likes of AFC Wimbledon who went bust, reformed and are now in the 3rd tier but they were perhaps a one off. A reformed and transformed club with some great backing and support meaning they could sustain a tilt every season at promotion regardless of league.

Did they go bust? I thought AFC Wimbledon was formed by supporters of Wimbledon FC in about 2002 when their club was stolen and transported to Milton Keynes. Then then had to start again low down, I think Combined Counties League or something like that.

WHG · Post by **WHG** » 08 Mar 2018, 17:24

Yorkieandy wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 16:54 I'm posting this with realism in mind and not negativity so apologies if it comes across that way but i was thinking about how many ex league clubs had actually dropped into regional football in say the past 30 or 40 years and subsequently managed to claw their way back into the football league. I don't have the stats and i'm sure aficionado's of the game at this level such as Merse, Jeff et al will have a greater idea but i'm guessing one maybe? Accrington? Although not sure if they went bust and reformed?

Of course there are the likes of AFC Wimbledon who went bust, reformed and are now in the 3rd tier but they were perhaps a one off. A reformed and transformed club with some great backing and support meaning they could sustain a tilt every season at promotion regardless of league.

The highest ranking of the other bust and reformed clubs such as Chester and Halifax are near the bottom of the NL and perenially struggling along with having serious financial difficulties. So, maybe history is against Torquay United and when the axe falls on it's NL status in a few weeks time, the club (if it still continues to exist) is set for a long, long, long stint out of the football league and without a serious backer / investor surrounded by serious football people is it time to accept that league football at Plainmoor will never happen again in many fans lifetime?

History suggests that once you've dropped to a certain level, you ain't coming back in a hurry if ever.

Is it time to re-evaluate the expectations everyone has as fans and accept that regional football is the natural level of the football club in the absence of any significant investment and in the absence of a phoenix club reformed and propelled up the leagues in swift time by a significant number of people?

If so then how do you individually even begin to accept that Torquay United are likely to be a part time regional club for many, many years to come?

Will future seasons to come of regional football, lower crowds and income with no hope of ever becoming a league club again soon become the straw that breaks the camels back, if it hasn't already, and signify a near collapse of the regular supporter base?

Then what?

More questions than answers i guess but it just hit me today when i was thinking about it just how many ex league clubs have dropped to such a level and returned within a fairly reasonable time frame if at all and i can only think of Accrington and even that might be wrong.

The non league scene too is now getting ultra competitive with many clubs lower than TUFC having investment and grand plans for the future so that makes the climate even more difficult.

Does anyone see a way back or is it to be expected that if the club survived then the next 20 or so years at least are to spent around regional footy and at best the lower reaches of the NL?

Do fans have to accept this as something that cannot be changed and jack it in altogether or continue attending due to being content with watching regional football or is there something we can do about it?

Exeter .Newport,Bristo; Rovers,Luton,Barnet.Cambridge just a few

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 08 Mar 2018, 17:48

I don't believe any of those clubs you mentioned dropped out of the national league and into regional football though and came back into the league which is what i stated.

They went down into the NL but managed to get back out again without having dropped further down the pyramid beforehand.

Rjc70 · Post by **Rjc70** » 08 Mar 2018, 18:30

Aldershot

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 08 Mar 2018, 18:32

Rjc70 wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 18:30Aldershot

Didn't Aldershot go bust though and reform?

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 08 Mar 2018, 18:35

I'm talking specifically clubs who have never gone bust and who have been in the football league in say the last 30 or so years and who have dropped lower than NL and still managed to get back into the football league.

I'm sure Aldershot went bust and got reformed but not sure. Apologies if I'm incorrect in that.

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 08 Mar 2018, 18:37

Aldershot got wound up in 1992 and since reformed so they don't count. I've just checked it.

It does seem odd that clubs who have gone bust and reformed have tended to make great strides through the leagues before hitting a plateau whereas ex league clubs on a long downward spiral never seem to recover and get back to where they were.

Maybe there is something to be said for that crest of a wave new fresh feeling of a phoenix club? At least for a few years anyway.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » 08 Mar 2018, 18:40

Yorkieandy wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 18:35 I'm talking specifically clubs who have never gone bust and who have been in the football league in say the last 30 or so years and who have dropped lower than NL and still managed to get back into the football league.

I'm sure Aldershot went bust and got reformed but not sure. Apologies if I'm incorrect in that.

Pretty sure the answer is none Andy.

As far as I am aware the only previously established League clubs who have dropped below NL without going bust and reforming are Stockport and York.

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 08 Mar 2018, 18:55

Yeah i think I'd go with that. Stockport I know have had further problems in the NLN and York are currently in a tug of war between the owner who wants the trust to hand over the remainder of the shares in the club. Presumably he wants out now and that will leave the club with no money and languishing so I don't see any of those two clubs getting back into the NL even in the foreseeable nevermind back in the FL.

Just pointing out that Torquay would have to break the mould of years and years of history if they want to be the first club to get back into the league after regional football. You can't do that without every single kilojoule of energy from everyone from the fans to the players to the manager to the owners etc all being joined together.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » 08 Mar 2018, 19:17

Yorkieandy wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 18:55 Yeah i think I'd go with that. Stockport I know have had further problems in the NLN and York are currently in a tug of war between the owner who wants the trust to hand over the remainder of the shares in the club. Presumably he wants out now and that will leave the club with no money and languishing so I don't see any of those two clubs getting back into the NL even in the foreseeable nevermind back in the FL.

Just pointing out that Torquay would have to break the mould of years and years of history if they want to be the first club to get back into the league after regional football. You can't do that without every single kilojoule of energy from everyone from the fans to the players to the manager to the owners etc all being joined together.

You specifically excluded Phoenix clubs from your theory but even they have a pretty poor record of returning to former glories. Only Newport and Aldershot have made it back to the football league and the Shots have since dropped back out again. Meanwhile, Chester and Halifax both rose through the leagues quickly but now struggle to stay in the NL.

Darlo seem to have stalled in a very competitive NLN and whilst Hereford are storming through the leagues at present they may well hit a ceiling before too long.

I excluded Wimbledon as they are a special case and Accrington Stanley as they went bust so long ago that they are more akin to other traditionally non-league sides who have reached the EFL (like Morecambe) than the fallen "giants".

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 08 Mar 2018, 20:10

That's a fair point Jerry and i excluded phoenix clubs simply because Torquay aren't one and i wanted to compare like for like but even though in comparison phoenix clubs have a better record, most of them still aren't really excelling in footballing terms.

I think maybe we are reaching a point where many lower league clubs now cannot afford to be run by owners whose sole intention is to use it for their own purposes but on the flipside neither can these clubs really get themselves competitive under fan ownership. Exeter and Wycombe are fan owned and have been slowly growing and building and i think that is the key now to sustainable running of football clubs at low levels where crowds are low and income streams are limited.

Is it better to have a Torquay United to support in the regional leagues for the next 30 years or no club at all? I'm not saying what is right or wrong but this is the dilemma. It is up to each individual fan what they want out of their club.

wivelgull · Post by **wivelgull** » 08 Mar 2018, 21:08

I think you'll find that GATESHEAD fits all Mr.Andy's criteria.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » 08 Mar 2018, 21:11

wivelgull wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 21:08 I think you'll find that GATESHEAD fits all Mr.Andy's criteria.

Afraid not Wivel. The Gateshead who were a league club went bust. This club have never been in the Football League.

Barrow or Southport are probably better examples.

merse btpir · Post by **merse btpir** » 08 Mar 2018, 21:35

Yorkieandy wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 16:54 I'm posting this with realism in mind and not negativity so apologies if it comes across that way but i was thinking about how many ex league clubs had actually dropped into regional football in say the past 30 or 40 years and subsequently managed to claw their way back into the football league. I don't have the stats and i'm sure aficionado's of the game at this level such as Merse, Jeff et al will have a greater idea but i'm guessing one maybe? Accrington? Although not sure if they went bust and reformed?

The Accrington Stanley (Founded 1968) that won promotion 'back' into the Football League were a reformation of the one that went bust (and came out of it without even completing their fixtures in March 1962) two years after the collapse of the original Accrington Stanley (founded in 1891). They were first promoted to the Football League in 2006, after winning the 2005–06 Football Conference.

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