Time to re-evaluate?

Plainmoor78 · Post by **Plainmoor78** » 08 Mar 2018, 22:21

So there is your answer Andy; no club descending from the football league into regional football has ever retained its league status.
As for your question as to what the fans can do about it, short of raising enough money to make an offer for the club, not a lot.

merse btpir · Post by **merse btpir** » 08 Mar 2018, 23:44

One thing we have to establish here is that football is an entertainment and supporting it should be enjoyable......

The big problem with football in this country and this day and age is the pre-occupation with winning and being at the top. As many of you know I watch a lot of football every week and mainly at levels below the National League. It's hugely enjoyable and if you truly love the game as I unashamedly do; you'll enjoy pretty much every single game you go to.

On Tuesday night I sat and watched hundreds of Billericay fans walk out on their team in a mass show of disrespect when it became apparent that they had lost their top of the table game with Dulwich Hamlet. A pathetic copy-cat of the behaviour of Arsenal and West Ham fans whenever things go against them. Billericay are second mind you; a point behind with four games in hand and yet they get that disrespect from their fans.

You have to get your head around things and learn to appreciate professional football being played in a nice stadium at the country's premier level of non-league football. No it's not the Football League but it's barely different from League 2 is it?

If Hereford come to visit next season you'll see hundreds of fans who still enjoy supporting their club; when FC United came to Plainmoor you saw hundreds of genuine football fans supporting a grass roots movement started to rekindle the old time values of terrace humour and unsophisticated enjoyment as opposed to the corporate monster their original love has become.

People who really love the game play on long after their legs won't carry them at the level they used to play at and hugely enjoy it because they truly love the game.....I met and chatted to one on Tuesday do you recognise him?

Who's the guy in the middle & do you remember him?

Plainmoor78 · Post by **Plainmoor78** » 08 Mar 2018, 23:57

Andy using your criteria of the last 40 years this a list of all the clubs that have been demoted from the football league and fallen into regional football.

1978 Southport, the last team to be demoted via reelection before automatic promotion introduced. Went into northern premier league.

2005 Kidderminster harriers, relegated to conference north in 2016

2011 Stockport county, relegated to conference north in 2013.

2012 Hereford united, in 2014 expelled from conference, placed in southern league premier and eventually banned from all football activity same year.

2016 York city, relegated to national north in 2017.

Its not that many clubs in fact, so Torquay are in a pretty exclusive league so to speak. We would be the first former league club to be relegated to the national south.

Plainmoor78 · Post by **Plainmoor78** » 09 Mar 2018, 00:09

merse btpir wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 23:44 One thing we have to establish here is that football is an entertainment and supporting it should be enjoyable......

On Tuesday night I sat and watched hundreds of Billericay fans walk out on their team in a mass show of disrespect when it became apparent that they had lost their top of the table game with Dulwich Hamlet. A pathetic copy-cat of the behaviour of Arsenal and West Ham fans whenever things go against them. Billericay are second mind you; a point behind with four games in hand and yet they get that disrespect from their fans.

I wonder how many of those walk outs were supporting the club before the current owner started bank rolling it. Agree it is pathetic.
Merse makes a good point about enjoying football, and indeed any activity for its own sake. There is a lot of negativity on this forum about the future of TUFC with respect to regional football, but there are also opportunities to be had. This club has lost its way over the years in pursuit of pipe dreams and as a result has become detached from the local community. The future lies in reengaging itself with that community first, before we start thinking about returning to the league.

Rjc70 · Post by **Rjc70** » 09 Mar 2018, 01:12

Well said, Plainmoor 78.

I would take a debt free and property developer free club two (Southern Premier) or three (Southern Div 1 South and West) levels below this one right now if offered.

I would feel more confident stability, a greater community engagement and optimism would appear sooner than recovering from the death of a thousand cuts that we are suffering now.

But we will likely be in debt to a property developer before recovering. If we can recover from that. So it’s fanciful thinking even to dream of that, it seems.

Keep the ground and we’d have an outside chance as we will be a big club at those levels if we keep our home. Hereford got charged 6% by an Osborne associated business for the loan he made to their predecessor company. Ours could be a bigger amount and bigger percentage by the time he finishes with us. I am pleased for Hereford fans and HUST that they are currently enjoying success and big crowds and expect them to overtake us in the pyramid sooner rather than later.

We could do the same as they are currently doing if we weren’t mortally wounded and homeless first. They are playing at Edgar Street. If he gets the freehold, we may as well prepare for the end if not already as it will end the same as everywhere else he has made new stadium promises. Why would it be any different here? Not even the Herald offer an alternative answer for Torquay, preferring instead to ignore that elephant in the room.

It’s GT, Merse. An ex loanee. And a good one at that. Better times.

merse btpir · Post by **merse btpir** » 09 Mar 2018, 06:46

Rjc70 wrote: 09 Mar 2018, 01:12 It’s GT, Merse. An ex loanee. And a good one at that. Better times.

Gavin Tomlin indeed; currently well on the way back from the broken leg he sustained playing at home to Billericay for Dulwich Hamlet in front of a crowd of 1,688 back in August.......'Ricky' won by the same 3-1 scoreline that they suffered the other night.

We chatted for a short while after the game and he said how much he enjoyed his time at Plainmoor and how shocked he was to see the club where it is now........after all; we could well be on Hamlet's fixture list next season!

If we are; anyone who travels there will experience a joyous occasion with an enthusiastic crowd enjoying somewhat 'pop-up' facilities for eating and drinking; a chronic lack of toilets and a bun fight for the less than 500 seats which cost no more to sit in than if you choose to remain standing.

But what Hamlet (owned and run by their trust) recognise is that by offering 'football for a tenner' those who come don't expect a Millwall or a Palace nor indeed pay anything like the prices and ticket buying balls ache it costs to get in those Chamionship and Premier League games and so their gates hold up to being the second best average (to Hereford at 1,495) average for Step 3 football in the country even though they inevitably clash with one of those nearby counter attractions every time they play at home.

Taking their product for what it is; not expecting Championship or Premier League standard on the pitch but nevertheless getting some pretty wonderful and entertaining football at most games, players and staff who are 'one of them' who mix, mingle and chat afterwards and even a nice young lady physio who once woke me up with a cup of tea when she spied me having a snooze in one of the leather setees prior to a midweek match I had got to early ~ now that's nice!

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 09 Mar 2018, 10:07

Plainmoor78 wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 23:57 Andy using your criteria of the last 40 years this a list of all the clubs that have been demoted from the football league and fallen into regional football.

1978 Southport, the last team to be demoted via reelection before automatic promotion introduced. Went into northern premier league.

2005 Kidderminster harriers, relegated to conference north in 2016

2011 Stockport county, relegated to conference north in 2013.

2012 Hereford united, in 2014 expelled from conference, placed in southern league premier and eventually banned from all football activity same year.

2016 York city, relegated to national north in 2017.

Its not that many clubs in fact, so Torquay are in a pretty exclusive league so to speak. We would be the first former league club to be relegated to the national south.

Good stuff P78. Especially highlighting the fact that overall there are only really a handful or so of clubs who fit my criteria to be considered therefore on the face of it perhaps the task of regaining league status at some point in the near future is a lot more than just a pipe dream. Next season will tell us for sure though.

The club are still owned by a property developer after all who seemingly (IMO) has staff around him who perhaps are also prepared to play their part in the grand plan. If next season turns out to be a total disaster with no positives or success on the pitch then i think the pipe dream then will be more of an impossible dream but i guess we will all have to wait and see what CO and GO have in store for us next season before we will know the true extent of the problem.

Personally i believe that the club will go part time and be in a relegation battle then ultimately fold but if the club remain full time next season, get some cash chucked about for a tilt at first time promotion and it goes well then i will be shocked but also prepared to revise my thoughts on what i think the powers that be have in store for the club.

I really do think that next season is do or die for the football club as a whole.

greb46 · Post by **greb46** » 09 Mar 2018, 10:15

Agree next season is do or die and will prove what the owner has in-store for the club,sorry to be a pessimist but I don't see money being thrown at the club for players by C O as he has different ideas to the genuine supporter and his idea is another relegation battle in a lower league,hope I'm proved wrong.

nickbrod · Post by **nickbrod** » 09 Mar 2018, 11:23

All the indications so far, pulling together recent comments made by Clarke Osborne, Geoff Harrop and Dave Thomas (ok not a particularly reliable trio) suggest that next season in National South the club will remain full time. Add in that some of this season's 'stars' (!) are in contract talks is another hint we'll be full time.

westyorkshiregull · Post by **westyorkshiregull** » 09 Mar 2018, 11:36

Is there any middle ground between part time and full time

merse btpir · Post by **merse btpir** » 09 Mar 2018, 12:03

Yes; full-timers who get beaten by part-timers!

Plainmoor78 · Post by **Plainmoor78** » 09 Mar 2018, 12:06

westyorkshiregull wrote: 09 Mar 2018, 11:36 Is there any middle ground between part time and full time

There is no reason why some players cannot be on full time contracts whilst others are on part time.
In fact in the early days of professionalism it was common to have teams made up of professionals and amateurs.
You could argue that we have had mixed contract teams very recently such as Rory Fallon being on a pay as you play basis.

Plainmoor78 · Post by **Plainmoor78** » 09 Mar 2018, 12:35

Bear in mind that playing regional football is relative. Torquay united didn't play national football until 1958 when football league divisions three and four were created.
We only play national football now because of the creation of the alliance league in 1979.
Up to 1958 only 44 clubs played national football (in football league divisions one and two).
Today because of the creation of three additional national divisions between 1958 and 1979, 116 clubs play national football.

Neal · Post by **Neal** » 09 Mar 2018, 12:44

Already re-evaluated

And I have no expectations moving forward with this lot

So going bust and starting again looks the better option.

What I have I said all along, start afresh. unless this lot do one, which doesn't look on the cards at the moment.

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 09 Mar 2018, 13:13

nickbrod wrote: 09 Mar 2018, 11:23 All the indications so far, pulling together recent comments made by Clarke Osborne, Geoff Harrop and Dave Thomas (ok not a particularly reliable trio) suggest that next season in National South the club will remain full time. Add in that some of this season's 'stars' (!) are in contract talks is another hint we'll be full time.

The only problem with this is that there are usually vast differences of humongous proportions from what CO says to what he actually does.

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