Are we getting an unfair reputation?

[Scott Brehaut]

As for CH, I like him as a bloke, a blogger, our past player and captain however as a manager who is tasked to get us out of this league I have my concerns.

Remember when you posted this:

Like most seasons I will give him at least 10 games before deciding however so far the results table shows him to be an average Conference manager.

Well, after 13 games, the table shows him to be a better than average Conference manager. In face, currently the fourth best.

Also, looking at those around us, I'm willing to bet that our team cost a lot less than the majority of the others.

I think CH is doing a good job - finishing anywhere near where we are now would be, for me anyway, an excellent season for both the club and the manager.

[kevgull]

Let me start by saying I have no desire to get embroiled in this little "spat" and I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion on a forum such as this. BUT that said, I must take issue with this "fact" that I have seen churned out (across a number of forums!!!!) on quite a few occasions which I believe to be wholly incorrect!!!

I believe it stems from the Fans Forum held at the beginning of the season. At the time, Thea Bristow went on record as saying that the playing budget for this season would have been THE SAME as it would have been if we had of still been in the League. With the greatest respect that is NOT saying that the budget is/was as the same as it was last season!!!!

Unless you know it to be "a fact" as you state it to be then I feel it is important to consider how likely it would be that, given that we are led to believe (largely based on an interview Aaron Downes gave to the media last season) that all/most of the players under contract faced an immediate 20% drop in wages as a direct result of relegation AND given that we have shed the wages of experienced pros of the likes of Hawley, Poke, Bodin, Mansell, Nicholson, Cooper and Labadie and basically replaced them with "kids" with everything to prove such as O'Achie, Richards, MacDonald, Seabright and to (probably) a lesser extent Bowman, Young and Briscoe ... it would be naive in the extreme to think these guys are getting paid anything like the sort of wages the guys from last season were on!!

There is no doubt in my mind that Hargreaves is on a considerably smaller budget this season than Alan Knill started with last season .... unless, of course, you know it to be a fact that this is not the case?

CP Gull, you may be correct with your assumption that Thea words were misconstrued however she seems to be the kind of person who says it like it is and not play with her words. With all due respect I don't think that the young talent enticed to Torquay would have come that cheap.

I agree that in the end, the likes of Hawley, Bodin, Cooper and Ladabie turned out to be very expensive poor signings. The final 2 probably came from the " oh shit, we need to do something pretty damned quick" budget.

[kevgull]

Sorry Kev - you set yourself up for flak. You didn't come on here criticising Hargreaves when we were winning six games on the trot and not conceding for eight, did you ? We'll agree not to agree until the end of November when we will have played all of the teams you mention (Barnet twice) bar Bristol Rvrs. We will have a better idea of how the team is shaping up by then.

Fair comment Tomogull, my concern is having our best players on the pitch in order to win games.

Would we still have lost on Tuesday with an in form Ajala and Downes playing. We had nothing to offer from the bench, backed up by a poor example set by CH

[hector]

Those with an axe to grind, will criticise CH for getting sent off yet I remember Cyril Knowles and Leroy getting sent off and treated like heroes for doing so.

[CP Gull]

CP Gull, you may be correct with your assumption that Thea words were misconstrued however she seems to be the kind of person who says it like it is and not play with her words. With all due respect I don't think that the young talent enticed to Torquay would have come that cheap.

I agree that in the end, the likes of Hawley, Bodin, Cooper and Ladabie turned out to be very expensive poor signings. The final 2 probably came from the " oh sh*t, we need to do something pretty damned quick" budget.

Kev

I was there and I KNOW what she said!

As for your comment about "young talent not coming that cheap" .... if Hargreaves is to be believed, from comments he made last week, there are currently FOUR players featuring regularly in our match day squad this season who are earning the equivalent wage of ONE (departed) player from last season! Now that either means we were paying one individual several thousand £s a week (never happened to my knowledge in all my years of supporting TUFC!) or more likely we are paying the current crop a few hundred quid a week.

“We’ve got four lads whose combined wages would add up to one of last season’s players, and they’re all delivering week-in and week-out,” said Hargreaves

[MidDevon]

One of the problems is that people are posting on this forum without sufficient knowledge of the rules of the game and not sufficient evidence to say if a player should have been booked or sent off.

I have not commented on the Forest Green Rovers yellow or red cards as I was not at the match and cannot make a decision based on a few minutes highlights alone. I was there on Saturday and therefore did post my views as I could see clearly why Ajala got his second booking and so could comment.

One of the major problems with some of this season's players is that they just commit too many fouls

"Persistent infringement on the Laws of the Game" is a justified reason for booking a player and that was certainly the case with Ajala on Saturday. You often see a referee point to the parts of the pitch where previous fouls were committed to justify his decision to the player being booked.

Those who watch Match of The Day will see the experts comment on referees carding decisions and it is normally only Lee Dixon who has a more objective view as appose to just going over and over the "last" foul, so this does not help.

By all means comment, that is what a forum is for, but please understand the rules of the game as everything is not as black and white as many posters on here would like to believe.

[kevgull]

Remember when you posted this:
Well, after 13 games, the table shows him to be a better than average Conference manager. In face, currently the fourth best.

Also, looking at those around us, I'm willing to bet that our team cost a lot less than the majority of the others.

I think CH is doing a good job - finishing anywhere near where we are now would be, for me anyway, an excellent season for both the club and the manager.

I think we have 15 or so very good players, who with the other squad members, could achieve a playoff place at the end of the season. Cards will kill us though.

I cooked a Humble pie after 12 games and baked it for a further 2 games, sadly it got burnt and tarnished the top. (£)

COYY!

[kevgull]

Those with an axe to grind, will criticise CH for getting sent off yet I remember Cyril Knowles and Leroy getting sent off and treated like heroes for doing so.

No axe to grind for me, to be honest he has started to win me over but you will drop points if you are playing with 9 or 10 men.


Bowman sent off - dropped points
Ajala, Downes sent off - dropped points
Richards sent off - dropped points

Also, players are receiving far too many yellows which has already started to have an impact on our 1st 11 selection and therefor possible future results. On Saturday we have a match winning defender and striker out due to suspension, both avoidable.

[Scott Brehaut]

Read this thread with interest: http://www.onlybarnet.com/forum/viewtop ... f=3&t=7751

Seems that refs were shocking down here last season too.

[Dave]

One of the problems is that people are posting on this forum without sufficient knowledge of the rules of the game and not sufficient evidence to say if a player should have been booked or sent off.

I have not commented on the Forest Green Rovers yellow or red cards as I was not at the match and cannot make a decision based on a few minutes highlights alone. I was there on Saturday and therefore did post my views as I could see clearly why Ajala got his second booking and so could comment.

One of the major problems with some of this season's players is that they just commit too many fouls

"Persistent infringement on the Laws of the Game" is a justified reason for booking a player and that was certainly the case with Ajala on Saturday. You often see a referee point to the parts of the pitch where previous fouls were committed to justify his decision to the player being booked.

Those who watch Match of The Day will see the experts comment on referees carding decisions and it is normally only Lee Dixon who has a more objective view as appose to just going over and over the "last" foul, so this does not help.

By all means comment, that is what a forum is for, but please understand the rules of the game as everything is not as black and white as many posters on here would like to believe.

Think you've hit the nail on the head there, many football fans complain about referees not making decisions in line with the laws of the game, You often get 'that was his first foul' ' he was the last man' amongst other things, and most football fans do not understand what the rules of the game actually are.

But one point of order here, manager are obliged to come out and give an interview after the game, often when their emotions are still running high, yet referees are completely untouchable. I can not for the life understand why the referee isn't obliged to do the same thing, and asked to explain some of his major decisions, it would help educate us fans, and make the refs more accountable.

[ferrarilover]

:-| I'm with Rich, this sort of thing is exactly what puts people off (rightly or wrongly)

Kev, take it from someone who knows, you're talking shite, both about Jesus and our apparent lack of discipline.

Mid, I know the rules (I've for a certificate to prove it :~D ) and I can tell when officials are taking the piss. Yeah, the referee COULD have dismissed both Ajala and Richards and justified the decision. Just as he could have dismissed Tongue on Tuesday for leaving and reentering the FOP without permission (a yellow a time) when he stepped over the goal line for their first. Thing is, while it might be within the letter of the law, it's not really in the spirit.
A sensible referee would have, on each occasion, spoken with the player and offered a warning that any more monkey business would result in the inevitable. The unofficial "sub him off" look towards the bench wouldn't go unnoticed, even by a manager as relatively inexperienced as ours.

Even this is, really, immaterial. My gripe with the whole thing is not that we had men sent off, if that's how the referees want to behave, then let them, it's that our opponents commit exactly the same innocuous fouls, and the same number too, and don't receive equally harsh punishment. As I said before, there were two genuinely shitty incidents in the FGR game, and neither of them was punished either correctly or equally as severely as much lesser offences committed by Richards and others. That's what's getting on my tits about all this.

Matt.

[tomogull]

Read this thread with interest: http://www.onlybarnet.com/forum/viewtop ... f=3&t=7751 Seems that refs were shocking down here last season too.

Interesting thread. I see that Rob Whitton, the ref on Tuesday night, received a number of negative comments. However, to even things up, Lee Swabey is also criticised. He ref'd the Woking match and I thought he was about the best ref we've had so far this season.

[Dave_Pougher]

Strange this "sufficient knowledge of the rules of the game" thing. My misses said on Tuesday evening that a straight intentional elbow to the face should probably be a straight red offence and not a yellow for the recipient of the elbow without any formal qualifications in football officiating whatsoever.

The ref however,,,,,,,

[kevgull]

:-| I'm with Rich, this sort of thing is exactly what puts people off (rightly or wrongly)

Kev, take it from someone who knows, you're talking shite, both about Jesus and our apparent lack of discipline.

Mid, I know the rules (I've for a certificate to prove it :~D ) and I can tell when officials are taking the piss. Yeah, the referee COULD have dismissed both Ajala and Richards and justified the decision. Just as he could have dismissed Tongue on Tuesday for leaving and reentering the FOP without permission (a yellow a time) when he stepped over the goal line for their first. Thing is, while it might be within the letter of the law, it's not really in the spirit.
A sensible referee would have, on each occasion, spoken with the player and offered a warning that any more monkey business would result in the inevitable. The unofficial "sub him off" look towards the bench wouldn't go unnoticed, even by a manager as relatively inexperienced as ours.

Even this is, really, immaterial. My gripe with the whole thing is not that we had men sent off, if that's how the referees want to behave, then let them, it's that our opponents commit exactly the same innocuous fouls, and the same number too, and don't receive equally harsh punishment. As I said before, there were two genuinely shitty incidents in the FGR game, and neither of them was punished either correctly or equally as severely as much lesser offences committed by Richards and others. That's what's getting on my tits about all this.

Matt.

Matt, We all know that "we only get shit refs" nothing new there. However we now know that our squad is finding it difficult to manage the refs at this level.

We are top of the ill disciplined league and have lost 2 winnable games due to sendings off!
Never lost to FGR in our history until last week and never expected to lose to the bottom of the table side against Telford.

Refs get worse the further down the leagues you fall and players get more physical. Something we must deal with, without racking up numerous coloured cards each week. Luke and Angus are both on 4 Yellows, only a matter of time before we lose one or both of them.

The man tasked to improve this is CH

[Dave]

Well if CH was sent to the stands for asking to see the ref then he has every right to feel aggrieved , I know is much different level, however the rules football are still the same, I've on a couple occasions as an U18 manager asked for 5 minutes with the ref, never encountered a problem.

As for Ill discipline being CH's fault, tried to offer a viewpoint on this, manager can spent a number of minutes pre match, he can cover it in training once he sends those players over the white line its down to them to make good decisions, an example of this, I was walking around the pitch prior to an S-D-L premier league match, and heard one of the managers drumming into his players about needless free-kicks, and how yellow/cards cost games, think this lad did all he possible could to encourage his players on discipline out on the pitch, yet his team still ended up with 5 yellows and a red card.

The the biggest bug bear on refereeing is common sense, but some times the level we play you'll find young and upcoming ref's who want promotion, these types of referee will not apply common sense because they want high assessment scores.