Torquay United Fans Forum

[quote="nickbrod"]In the Non-League Paper in Hereford's 3-0 away win at Southport Lathrope's performance merited 8 stars.[/quote]

Not at all surprised, if used correctly by a manager that knows what he is doing ( last example....Ling ) then he is a very effective player!

There is some missing of key points here. Yes, two mistakes gifted goals to Chesterfield (same as the Rochdale game). This could be partly forgiven if there had been a fight back, even an unsuccessful one. There was no fight back, no spirit, no guts and very little evidence of any footballing ability or tactical awareness. This is largely down to the manager, although the players must share some of the blame. This is not bad luck, it is bad management. He has to go, now.

[u]22 Accrington 16 3 5 8 14 22 -8 14[/u]
23 Torquay 16 3 5 8 17 27 -10 14
24 Northampton 16 3 4 9 14 22 -8 13

Matt - see this is. It is a league table.

I appreciate you have difficulty understanding the relevance of such a thing and instead abound with conspiracy theories about the bias of the BBC and referees who let the team who score most win, complain that we have more injured players than live in Japan and that basically the whole world and lady luck are against Torquay.

See the bit that tells you how many games you have won - THREE. Yes, that many. Nobody has won less. Worst defensive record and only four teams have scored less. So we cannot score and we cannot defend and its getting worse, not better. The team that we were supposed to give ten games to has been changed and chopped around so much because the manager appears not to know his best team. Are we supposed to keep giving him ten games, every time he decides that what he thought he was doing, actually he shouldn't be doing, because it doesn't work so then he tries a load more things that just do not work?

Oh, the line thing - that is the relegation zone. Unfortunately, the rules state, that if you finish below it, you get relegated. They have not yet built in a sort of excuses factor to the issue of getting relegated or not or even a 'we were not properly beaten' aspect to it. If you finish below the line, you go. Do you understand that? Admittedly, I did look at your favourite BBC for this information, so perhaps they have meddled with it, so we look shit. Maybe even turned it upside-down.

You say the club cannot sack Knill but ultimately they will and where will that leave your argument? More importantly, I suppose, where will that leave Torquay if they do as you suggest, and persist with one of the worst managers we have ever had? You know, as well as anyone, lest you will not admit it, that Alan Knill is not going to turn this around. So if we have to wait until the end of his contract to sack him, what division will we be in by then and what will you do with the whole ground to yourself? Because you would probably be the only one left watching.

In the Non-League Paper in Hereford's 3-0 away win at Southport Lathrope's performance merited 8 stars.

Ok, what we really need to do is stop and press the reset button with the whole lot, Directors, Players all of them.
But its just not going to happen, I am as jacked off about this as the next.

Yes, I accept that both Chesterfield goals came from errors, that happens. personally been very lucky to attend a lot of mainly professional academy coaching over the years, and of the things you hear coach's constantly drum into players, is you will make mistakes, what sets you out as a player , is how you recover from that mistake.

We recovered from the first mistake by making another one with in 5 minutes, we recovered from the second by rolling over and having tummies tickled, that's where your coaching staff can earn their corn.

There already is one, it's called 'TRUST' and it has a sparse posting rate. :lol:

[quote="ferrarilover"]We play the side who will, in all likelihood, win the division. In any case, the side in second place. We play them with two strangers in midfield and a bloke who is miles past his best even in his favoured position at right back. We're a team desperately short of confidence and we give the opposition two goals the first two times they get in our half.
AK can do absolutely nothing about any of that. Individual errors for the goals, injury ravaged squad. Hell, we can't even catch a break on a f**king triallist without his dear old mum popping her clogs minutes after he steps off the plane at Torquay International Airport.

Christ, it was hopeless, I mean really hopeless once they went 2-0 up, but there are so many reasons why that go miles beyond 'well just sack the manager and we'll be ok'.

I'll admit, yesterday, I waivered. I came away thinking to myself that perhaps I was wrong, perhaps the certain death of sacking Knill would be better than the potential for a slow and painful death. Perhaps, I thought, if we sacked him and relegated ourselves now, we might just be able to at least enjoy the football on show without the pressure. We might, I mused, at least be able to say to people that we were relegated because we lost all our best players in January to pay the sacked manager. At the very least, I thought, those of us left on here would be able to point and laugh at Hector and others and say 'I told you so'.

However, I have returned to my senses upon the first, cold light of day, and have taken the positives and the mitigation of yesterday and have decided that I was right all along. Sacking Knill remains the wrong decision. The only proviso is that he REALLY has to get 4 points from the next two games, otherwise I might have another wobble.

Matt.[/quote]

Matt,
If you don't agree that your friend should be sacked then why not start a "Knill in" thread & see if you get some support for your views.

Yes so fight back and get back your dignity and self respect. A 2-0 loss battling and throwing the kitchen sink at it and the fans will go home proud and positive for the next game. What did we get? AGAIN

I've been right behind Knill & Brass until our FA Cup defeat. It's the manner of our defeats I can't handle. It's clear to see that there is no creative player in our mid-field two.
Breaking up opposing attacks is ok but not if those same players can't set up our own.
As Ling used to say 'the answers are in the building' (or certainly on the payroll eg Yeoman & Lathrope) but surely the formation has to change.
Incidentially is Hawley better than Benyon?

Probably the only thing i will mention about yesterdays game is that it doesnt matter who Knill selects or what formation, when players make individual errors like yesterday that cost us 2 goals, it completely knocked the s$%t out of us.

I simply do not buy into this hang on, Chesterfield have a massive budget and are near the top, likewise Rochdale. We've been in the same position before, with our small budget and lower middle table team, we've come up against top teams with League 1 budgets many times over the years, to say we lost to a top team is understandable, no surprise really, is utter nonsense.

Losing a game, losing to Chesterfield, losing to a team near the top was not in any way the problem, is never a problem, the problem was in the manner we lost the game.

Defend like your life depended on it, fight for every blade of grass, pass and move the ball quickly, create chances, ask questions of the opposition all over the park, do that against a top team and lose, ok you lose, but you lose with your dignity in tact, you walk of the pitch with your heads held high knowing you gave it everything you had, just lost to a better team.

yesterday, we saw none of the above, and that's not the first time, York and Rochdale home, concerning patten emerging here, I have backed Knill to the hilt and didn't, like some call for his head at the first sign a trouble, part of really hopes he can turn things around, however I am beginning to doubt.

Stephen, you aren't capable of thinking about this beyond a certain point. We accept that, but please, stop keep on with the same reply over and over and over. We get it, as far as your thinking can take you, we must sack Knill at all costs, then everything will be okay. That's fine, but the infants went to bed an hour ago, so it's only the grown ups left and their thinking takes them so far beyond your argument that you're left miles behind.

I've tried explaining it to you 100 ways, but it's simply too complex for you to understand. This is fine. I don't understand physics beyond a certain point, but I recognise this and I don't argue the same argument over and over with people who clearly know better than I do.

Take it from me, we can't sack Knill just accept that and you can join in again.

Those who see it my way have done the sensible thing and (what I really should do) left you lot to your insanity fuelled witch hunt.

I'm giving serious thought to joining Dave and others and 'doing an Andy' by taking a sabbatical from the main board until it calms down.

Matt.

[quote="Lloyder5"]Agreed. And as I was saying, we do need to go back to some functional no frills football; hard work, closing down, winning personal battles, getting to the second ball, smart use of subs i.e. those who are replaced will have run themselves into the ground. We also need to improve our movement up front significantly.[/quote]

Spot on but Alan just isn't capable of getting even 20% of this out of the players. On Saturday we all knew Chesterfield have a lot better squad than us and by doing his homework Knill should have realised they like to flood the midfield and get the ball down and play. This is no secret, Chesterfield have played the same formation almost for the entire season.

THIS IS REALISM: CHESTERFIELD AT HOME - THE PROBLEMS (IMO)

So what does Knill do? He plays 4 in midfield. A beauty. Rigid and ineffective against a side full of movement and guile. In addition, arguably our most combative midfielder gets shunted to right back when this was a game someone like him was most needed in the middle. You could also point the finger at Knill for having no cover at right back or at least having no faith in any of the younger lads to come in and give it a crack.

In addition he recalls Nathan Craig who hasn't had much game time this season and doesn't really give you a 'bite' in the middle either. Bizarre decision and even worse he sticks him out wide where we all know he is least effective.

In addition he puts his full trust in Jak McCourt to effectively be the 'enforcer'. We're talking about an 18 year old kid who only made his professional debut last month at Wycombe and now he is expected to hold the midfield together against players as experienced and talented as Gary Roberts, Jay O'Shea, Sam Hird and Jimmy Ryan with the assistance of Craig, Chappell and Mozika.

In addition he chooses to give Mozika a league start in a game where we are completely devoid of any aggressive bite and so just what did Knill expect Mozika to do exactly? Take it around 3 and stick one in the top corner? Bit difficult when you are overrun in the middle me thinks.

In addition he plays Chappell which in isolation is a sensible decision, he has scored 5 goals this season and on song is a big threat. Not really much point though if he has no support, no outlets, no options either from the midfield or the strike pair of McCallum and Hawley. Basically Chappell was phased out of the game completely.

In addition regardless of who was in midfield the remit should really have been to do the groundwork and see if we can nick one from a break or set piece. So what that essentially means is to effectively combat the 5 man Chesterfield midfield we needed to get stuck in from the kick off and until there was nothing left in the tank. Sadly the tank emptied after 15 minutes. What are we? A f*cking moped?!

To have any chance of negating such a catastrophic team selection and formation we at least needed to press them, get in their faces, double up whenever we could and basically stop them from being able to dictate the play. Again it isn't top secret information that Chesterfield have struggled a bit this season when pressure has been applied and they weren't allowed to play.

It was a certain defeat even before kick off and we never even had a chance thanks to Knill and his lazy, bone idle, 'whatever' style of management. How he could have picked such a mish mash of a midfield for a game like this is anyones guess. How many fans would have picked the same?

In addition, this was a game we should have gone like for like and matched their formation by having Lathrope as an anchor to at least give the defence some cover and the midfield some support. Just as Sam Hird facilitated this for the visitors, we could have effectively combatted this by using Lathrope but he was sent to Hereford at a time when Harding is injured, Mansell was dropped into defence and we basically have f*ck all of a midfield.

In addition to this, there was a complete lack of understanding and communication from the players due to frequent squad rotation.

Yes, this man actually gets paid for managing us.

In addition he opts for two of the most immobile and predictable strikers in Hawley and McCallum. Hawley is our joint second top goalscorer with 2 goals and he has played well over a thousand minutes of football. Yes that is basically playing football non stop for about half a day and 2 goals. He shouldn't really be anywhere near the first 11 given his record, given his complete collapse as a potent marksmen these past 8 years and given he has quite comprehensively failed to reinvigorate his career with us. Where would he go from here? Exactly, he may as well retire because he has hit rock bottom.

McCallum also started, a loanee who is also joint second top scorer. Both were easily brushed aside. Meanwhile we have Ashley Yeoman at Bideford and I am willing to bet that given the same amount of game time afforded Hawley, Yeoman would have scored AT LEAST 2. Yet we can't even bring him on as sub because he has been shipped out on loan.

Finally if you analyse the mannerisms and demeanour of messrs Knill and Cook on the touchline you soon get a picture of the contrasting styles. I'm not one for exclusively saying that a manager who rants and raves on the touchline is automatically a good thing for his team but Knill wanders about solemnly as if he is some tactical wondergod who portrays the image that he has it all under control and is secretly aware of everything that needs to be done without resorting to outbursts. This would be ok if this were the case but in reality he hasn't got a f*cking clue what day of the week it is and therefore this lack of animation just makes him look like an idiot and only serves to reinforce the belief amongst fans that he has literally no idea and no passion.

In addition we also get a clear lack of audible instructions to the players on a regular basis, he is not a leader, he is not a communicator, he is not a tactician and he isn't a very competent football manager on the face of it either so what is he then? Is he some sort of Government experiment? Is he an offshoot project of Roswell? Is he an active subject of a scientific paper being drafted up by the University of Manchester's psychology department about the efficacy of managing within a sporting environment when suffering post traumatic squirrel disorder?

I don't know, nobody does.

So this is just the breakdown of one game. A game we perhaps had no right to win given the circumstances and the squads on show but also a game where once again the inability of Knill to spot the blindingly obvious has us scratching our heads for another week.

You WILL be sacked Mr Knill but in the meantime we need 3 points at Accrington who are unbeaten in their last 6 and who have won 3 of their last 4 and with their stellar squad Mr Knill.

So if we want to talk about realism then i'm all ears. There is nothing more real than the vacuous echo of desolation around grounds such as Welling, Hyde and Gateshead. Is that real enough for all the faith healers out there? Probably not because you probably won't end up going anyway.

Knill must get 6 points from these next 3 games and not only that, we should get them and DESERVE it through good play and endeavour. I don't want a 3-1 at Bury scenario papering over the cracks, i don't want a 1-0 win at Accrington but get battered only to be shown up for what we really are against Plymouth. I want to see a united team performance with desire, ability and positivity. I want to be able to see where we are heading, what Knill is trying to do, why he is picking the players he is.

Accrington have a worse squad than us and although it's a nasty place to go most teams have gone there and done the business. Scunny have just been beaten at home to Accy and also got battered 4-0 at York so we should be looking at tearing into them and that leaves Plymouth. Our home form is horrendous as are the performances too. Not next Tuesday they won't be. Not if Knill wants to remain in employment.

This is realism.

[quote="ferrarilover"]We play the side who will, in all likelihood, win the division. In any case, the side in second place. We play them with two strangers in midfield and a bloke who is miles past his best even in his favoured position at right back. We're a team desperately short of confidence and we give the opposition two goals the first two times they get in our half.
AK can do absolutely nothing about any of that. Individual errors for the goals, injury ravaged squad. Hell, we can't even catch a break on a f**king triallist without his dear old mum popping her clogs minutes after he steps off the plane at Torquay International Airport.

Christ, it was hopeless, I mean really hopeless once they went 2-0 up, but there are so many reasons why that go miles beyond 'well just sack the manager and we'll be ok'.

I'll admit, yesterday, I waivered. I came away thinking to myself that perhaps I was wrong, perhaps the certain death of sacking Knill would be better than the potential for a slow and painful death. Perhaps, I thought, if we sacked him and relegated ourselves now, we might just be able to at least enjoy the football on show without the pressure. We might, I mused, at least be able to say to people that we were relegated because we lost all our best players in January to pay the sacked manager. At the very least, I thought, those of us left on here would be able to point and laugh at Hector and others and say 'I told you so'.

However, I have returned to my senses upon the first, cold light of day, and have taken the positives and the mitigation of yesterday and have decided that I was right all along. Sacking Knill remains the wrong decision. The only proviso is that he REALLY has to get 4 points from the next two games, otherwise I might have another wobble.

Matt.[/quote]

If I called your view a minority one, that would really be being kind. Its a view that is almost in the land of fruitcake. How on earth sacking a manager with one of the worst records in our history ensures relegation is utter nonsense? Is there anyone who could do any worse? Well, you might but...but persisting with Knill ensures the death of this club. Relegation means a far bigger loss of income than it would take to cope with paying off Knill. The revenue we lose this season when gates go down to 1300 will only aggravate that. You just don't get it. Alan Knill is not going to turn this around. I thought the it would take until March for the club to wake up. From how it feels and what you here said, I can't see him here beyond Christmas at this rate. What you deny is essentially in the throes of happening.

And this injury ravaged squad you refer to. Every side in the division will have players missing through injury and we don't have that many injured any longer. If the only justification you can come up with for keeping Knill is the supposed reason that we cannot afford to sack him, then when it does happen, because it is surely only a matter of time, I take it you will be up in arms and incandescent with rage, decrying the club for its stupidity in trying to save our Football League status. Somehow, I doubt you will.

You have been coming up with the flimsiest excuses for weeks now, in a vain effort to defend the indefensible and now you just look silly . It's just you, virtually on your own, like one of those old people who have lived in a house on their own that they won't move out of, even though there is a motorway about to be built through it, because you refuse to see sense and instead build up your own little bizarre fantasy world of reasons as to why you are right - even though the facts stare you in the face.