Some perspective needed.

[royalgull]

If I felt we had some sort of plan on the pitch then I could take where we are, the writing was on the wall from day 1 in terms of the reality of this season.There was some absolute nonsense/ pre season exhuberence written on these forums in July/August of how we'd be top 7 and what a great squad we had and all the rest of it. It was never going to happen and it never was.

We've lost key players over the course of the last year/18months and very rarely have they been suitably replaced, it was possible to move say Billy Kee on and not really notice it, it was even possible to lose Branston and Zebroski and still not really notice it because they were all extras to what was a good side in waiting, we got by and Ling added really well last summer. The signings of Saah, Olejnik in particular, restoring Mansell to midfield with Oastler at right back gave us a really solid base. We weren't as fluent a side as we were under Bucks, we didn't have the attacking threats from all over the park but we were tough to beat mainly down to the best goalkeeper in the bottom 2 division being between our posts. Olejnik + Mansell's season of a lifetime gave us a false placing of 5th place. We were slightly better than we are now in reality nothing more and it was highlighted at Cheltenham who had 4 strikers, 2 wingers on fire and they tore us apart at Whaddon Road in the playoffs.

The summer meant we lost Ellis and Olejnik 2 of our key components from that setup, with O'Kane going our already limited attacking options had been decimated, i made the point in the summer it is completely unrealistic to expect Mansell or Stevens to get 10 goals again. they'd never done it before in their careers and it was totally a one off season. We had to add in these areas to try and get some more threats, we haven't done that so we are exactly the same as we were last season just without O'Kane and also without the form of Mansell and Stevens. bodin was the great white hope but again he's a young kid that did improve us when on loan but he was joining a team with confidence, not only that but loan players always seem to play better than when they sign contracts, that something to prove mentality i suppose, i didn't see him as the answer myself, that's been proven to be the case thus far, it is still early in his TUFC career and I hope he can find some consistency in his game and actually offer us something more. Defensively Downes has been every bit as good as Ellis and Robbo before him but Poke just isn't of the same class as Bobby, that's not a dig at Pokey but it would have been true of whoever we signed. Poke has actually done pretty well in the main as we thought he would if we gave him suitable time. This is why we are where we are, we are weaker as a back 5 than we were last year and we are significantly weaker as an attacking group. it's not a good recipe.

coming back to my main point and away from the history lesson, my point about us having a plan when I've seen us we don't have one, well not a viable long term plan. Our plan is to play as many defensive players as possible, launch it to Rene hope he does something, get the first goal, then defend for 80minutes and win 1-0. It's pathetic, it's not a tactic it's sitting there waiting to get beat with no thoughts of taking charge of the game so to speak. This is probably why I preferred us as a team to watch under Bucks, I didn't always agree wtih his methods or team selections but you could never fault a Bucks side of not going for a win...ever. When we were good under him we were really good. Wycombe away always sticks in my mind because we went to a side that ended up getting promoted and we literally walked rings around them all night, we won 3-1 and it flattered them. We did the same thing in the home game and they escaped 0-0 somehow.

We always had 4 or 5 players in the side at any one time who could hurt the opposition, Wroe then became O'Kane, we had Carayol, Zebroski, Rendell, Kee, Benyon, Tomlin and Robinson at one point or another. We were fast, we passed it, we moved well and we were always a threat. We weren't Brazil and we had our off days but I could tell you how we'd play, what our plan of action was and on our day we could beat anyone in our league and sometimes from higher up.

Could you say the same now? If we played football, on the ground, passed to feet but lacked a bit of spark or were just getting beat because the opposition were better than us at it then I'd have no qualms. But we don't. I know the budget isn't great and we can't have the likes of the players listed above anymore but you can have a philosophy and away of playing that players can attempt to do. No matter what team Stoke pick they'll play the same way, no matter what team Swansea pick they'll play the same way and it's true for every team in the country. Our policy seems to be 4-5-1 park the bus and hope to stay in the game, it's dire, it's crap to watch and it doesn't work!!! Not with these players anyway.

I want to see us let of the leash for the remaining games, I want to see us commit men forward, try and score goals and not have these 'unlucky' 1-0 losses. they aren't unlucky, we're losing because we have no plan to deal with going behind and our starting plan is setting up to make games scrappy dire affairs where hopefully we nick it 1-0. Well stuff that.

If we end up going down or finishing 22nd having a go for the last games then I'll accept that, if we go down or continue to slide playing this way then we as fans should seriously demand change for next season because it isn't good enough.

[SuperNickyWroe]

100% with you royal.
especially the last 4 paragraphs.

[chunkygull]

great posting royalgull.

[Dave]

Welcome back Ian, Royalgull, thats is the forum poster I remember, glad to see you posting your real thoughts again, and dropping those daft little wind up attempts.....

[CP Gull]

We need a total rethink. We need anew man, who is not going to just pick his favourites. So no more Manse, Nico, Bodin and Jarvis as automatic starters... quite simply they are not playing well enough!

As for Taylor not bringing Benyon on and leaving Craig out of the squad completely, words fail me ... the guy, quite simply hasn't got a clue!

[Regiment]

Sorry, there are a lot of new threads at the moment, and i wasn't sure where to respond to all of them in one hit, but i thought this the most appropriate thread title for what i wanted to say, so here goes.

Ok, so having followed the Gulls from a distance recently, last night (Aldershot) was the first game I’ve been to for a while. As a result I’ve not been posting here much recently either, but have been reading regularly, and keeping up to date. Having been a supporter for 30+ years, I’ve been lucky enough to see all the Wembley appearances, the Old Trafford trip, and over the years, there have been some very good days. Unfortunately though, the lows have outweighed the highs, but has that deterred me from following my team ?? No, of course not.

As I said, I’ve not been to a game for a while, since Oxford away in fact, and when I’m not directly involved in the games, and on goings of the club, I find myself less able to pass my opinion on here. I do however read with interest what you all say, and there has been a steady trend in the nature of posts over the past few months. That trend has been negative. I’ve been genuinely disappointed by some of the comments I’ve read, and think there are one or two people who need a bit of a reality check when it comes to supporting TUFC.

Since our promotion from the BSP, we’ve had a pretty decent time of it, and as a result I think one or two people’s memories are a bit short. I’m not having a dig, it’s easily done. I’m sure Man Utd fans prefer to forget all those years where they won sweet FA while Liverpool were dominating.

Disappointment is a different thing altogether, and naturally at the moment, there’s a lot of that banding around. I, like the rest of you, left the EBB last night full to the brim with disappointment. Disappointed by the result, the performance, Taylor, and at least 9 of the players on the pitch. I was also disappointed by the support at times, but that isn’t meant as a criticism of anyone, I understand those frustrations, but it was still disappointing to hear it.

Make no mistake, we are in a bad way, and looking at that last night, it’s very hard to see how we can get out of it. I’ve taken hope in the past when things haven’t gone well, by looking at the teams around as and been happy that although we were struggling, there were worse teams around us. We played a very poor team last night, and they deserved to beat us. That is worrying. I can’t remember a worse performance from the team for a very long time, and I think it’s the first time I’ve left a game with nothing good to take from the game. The players looked disinterested, even when the goal went in, the only player who looked genuinely p***ed about it was Poke. The rest of them just had a look of, “oh well, I don’t give a sh*t”. Our play was poor, and when you need someone to step up to the plate, none of them did. There is enough experience in the squad, we have “leaders” but none of it was on show last night. For me the only two players who left the field with any credit were Poke and Leadbitter. Poke did nothing wrong, made a fantastic save first half from a header, and could do very little about the goal. Leadbitter was our best outfield player, and main attacking threat – from right back !! On one occasion in the second half, he went bombing the length of the pitch, looked up for Howe in the middle, and must’ve thought, “where the f**k is he ??”. I tell you where he was Dan, covering you at right back. What the f**K. How the hell could that happen ??!?!? Disorganised madness. Howe gradually gets the hump, and gets his predictable booking, Manse and Nico, two guys I have the utmost respect for, they love this club, but they really need to step up and take things on, put a bit of fire in the team. There was none of that from them last night, and that was disappointing too. When players are not performing, as a supporter I can accept that, no one is fantastic every game, but when there appears to be a lack of effort, that’s something different.

There is a clear lack of belief in the squad, and I’m afraid some of that is down to Taylor. I don’t want to criticise him too much, he’s been in a very difficult position and would probably rather not being doing the job in Ling’s absence. However, he has to take responsibility for some of the problems. We were playing a poor team last night, and I thought it was bad enough that we did not set up more attack minded from the start. ok, start cautious, I’ll give him that, but surely after 15 minutes he could see how poor Aldershot were, and change things a bit. We should not be turning up to games like that trying to avoid defeat. Those are games we should win, and go out expecting to do exactly that. As the game wore on, it was clear we were treading water at best, and yet he did not change anything. A lack of managerial experience is no excuse for that. Everyone in the ground could see we needed a goal, we needed an attacking threat, and yet Benyon didn’t kick a ball. Instead, Downes pushes up front for the last 10 minutes. ok, it’s desperate, we’re a goal down, but why not stick Benyon on as well as pushing Downes up top, if he genuinely felt moving him up there was a good idea. May as well lose 5-0 than not even try everything to get a goal back. It was extremely poor management, only he can explain his reasons for it. I’m not going to beat him up about it, he’s not a manager, so you expect him to get things wrong, and I’m sure he’s genuine enough to hold his hands up if he messes up. But last night he did absolutely nothing, and that is inexcusable. Try and maybe you’ll fail, but don’t fail without even trying, that’s just pathetic.

Having taken stock of last nights game, and what I’ve read here recently, part of me is thinking we’ve been living on false hopes for a while. Last season we found a formula that worked for us, and we went on a good run, and flirted with promotion. As the season wore on, we were found out, and the season ended with little more than a whimper. For a while this year, we were picking up results, again, without playing particularly well, and now we’re struggling. So what has changed in the past 12 months ?? Ok, we’ve lost good players, but even before Bobby, Ellis and Eunan left, we were already showing signs of struggling, hence our poor season end and being dumped out of the play offs.

What I think we have is a pretty average group of players, but it is possible to take that, and make them into an effective unit. That’s what we are not doing. Maybe that’s where Ling has struggled. He found a formula that worked for a while, but now it needs changing, and that hasn’t happened. Maybe Alan Knill is the man to do something about that. I don’t think it makes Ling a bad manager, and I am a little surprised some have called for him to go. Again, I think we need to be realistic and look at what he is working with. He clearly has no funds, and has been tasked with more than just ‘picking the team’ (training facilities, youth set-up etc). Maybe he just needed to focus more on the immediate problems, I don’t know. Obviously things have very much changed now with him being so unwell, and I wish him a speedy and full recovery of course, and we need to move on, but I hope he is back one day, and able to re-take his position.

I seem to remember there was opposition to Ling being appointed, and I’m reading similar things today about Knill, but I say give the man a chance, and get behind the team. I can think of far worse people to take this on right now, so lets all stick together and give our full support to him and the players. From the remaining 14 games, we are going to need as many points as possible, and it’s going to be tough. We’ve been there before, and we’ll be there again, but we can do this. COYY !!

[tomogull]

I am one of the Old Gits who read, and occasionally post, on this forum. I don't mind admitting that I shed a tear or two when we were relegated to the Conference cos I didn't think I'd be around to see the club I'd supported for 50+ years get back into the League. I will never forget that Wembley moment when Wayne Carlisle crossed, Tim Sills soared, and we were 2-0 up against Cambridge and on our way back to Div 2. Now we're in a dog fight again and if we fail to stay up, then I know I won't be around to see us get back!

However, there have been a lot of negative and unfair comments on this site directed against Shaun Taylor, Simon Baker, Bill Thomas and the directors in general. Firstly, I think Shaun Taylor would see himself as a coach (and I think he's a good coach) rather than a manager. Secondly, Simon Baker and the directors don't have to put their heads on the chopping block - they could simply walk away if they wished (and I bet sometimes they are tempted to do so !). it must be a thankless task to be a chairman or director of a club run on a tight budget like Torquay. I personally think Simon Baker is a great chairman for us and that we have been moving in the right direction as a club - we are lucky he's there. Let's give Alan Knill AND the team (whatever team he puts out on Saturday) our full backing. Like many on here, I believe we have the players to hoist us up the league - they just need to play with confidence. We need 13 points from 14 games - three wins and a draw. WE CAN DO IT !! Starting with 4 points from the next two home games. Let's not even contemplate the Conference.

[Gullscorer]

I agree with all these posts; good stuff..!!

[Lloyder5]

Particularly Regiment's post. We need players to show commitment and courage. Doesn't mean fist pumping aggression, although that helps some time (opponents were scared of Phil Lloyd). It's about wanting the ball in a difficult position (like Jason Fowler did, with dodgey hips), making/receiving that challenging pass (Russell, Hargreaves etc), hitting the shot first-time when it is easier to take a touch and not look a **** (Loram, Graham, Caldwell etc). It not necessarily about wonderful natural ability but having the mental strength to do so when the chips are down. Now's about the right time!

[AustrianAndyGull]

Tonight was a show of unity and a point gained against all the odds. The players owed us this and one hard fought draw with 10 men against a side who have lost 7 at home isn't going to persuade me that we've turned a corner. Nothing has changed apart from we might have got a bit of confidence back. We needed to win this game although you can't legislate for having a man sent off 3 minutes in so a draw is a really respectable result.

All i'm saying is that we still cannot win football matches and the most important thing about this result tonight is the bounce factor. There have been many occasions this season where a good result has been followed by a bad one and had many of us thinking we had turned a corner. Some good performances that didn't lead to wins gave us confidence for the next game only to find we lost it. If we can go to Southend and get a draw then i slowly might be persuaded that we are beginning to get something together but tonight means nothing more than we are a point better off than Accrington. One bad result for us and good one for them turns this around. We have now lost Downes and although we have scored twice in a game since the 1st of December, we still haven't managed to win. We nearly threw it away because we can't defend. I can see the positives from tonight and only if we can avoid a defeat at Southend will they start proving to be lasting positives that we can work from. Until then, i am sorry to be a realist when we are all overjoyed at getting a point at Dagenham ( how sad is that? ) but i cannot change my view that we are going to be relegated. I hope i'm not going to get some ridiculous comments for this but i don't want us to be lulled. We move on to saturday a point better off but with a key man now suspended. They are the margins and that's where we're at now. It still looks pretty grim to me but i will know more about what effect tonight has had on the squad come 5pm saturday. And yes i am pleased we got something from the game and i have to say well done to the players and Alan but it's only a tiny amount that is still a million miles from payback. COYY!!

[AustrianAndyGull]

Having said all that, i am sort of looking forward to saturday with a slight degree of hope now after reading some reports from tonights game. COME ON!!!!! YOU YEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLOOOWWWWWWWS

[brucie]

Totally fair comment. People going completely overboard because we have got a point. There is nothing special in this league and Southend are nothing to be afraid of either. We are still going to need wins to keep us up and Knill needs to pull at least two decent signings out to give us a chance because our team isn't good enough.
Cruise despite what people are saying is lightweight. Jarvis by the sound of it was completely hopeless again and you will never get 90 minutes out of the likes of Macklin so I don't think we have the team to get us those wins. Lose at Southend and we will be back to square one, probably needing to win two home games next week to stay up - a tall order in itself.

[Dockers Pal]

Now we have had 5 games under Knill and gained 2 points. In comparison in their first 5 games Keith Hill at Rochdale and Andy Scott at Aldershot each gained 6 points, Sheridan at Argyle gained 8 points and Ward at Bristol R gained 10 points. Knill remains the least successful recent managerial appointment in L2.

Plus points obviously this evenings second half. The numbers of attempts on goal in the last couple of games have been substantially greater than the last days of the old regime and Taylors short stint.
I regard it as also a positive sign that one of the regular shirtholders has been dropped for a youngster to show what he can do (Cruise for Nico). I hope that there will be more examples of this selection policy in the remaining games, like getting Leadbitter, Tommo, Craig and Yeoman involved.
And I also note that Macklin drew the tackle for the penalty, adding value to team and helping achieve a commendable result.

And how long has it been since we last had a performance to rave about?

[standupsitdown]

It wasn't that we got a point but the way we got it. To be honest after 15 minutes I'd have taken a 1.0 defeat and maintained our goal difference. Dagenham were making chances, we weren't challenging hard enough to win the 50:50 balls and didn't look like we'd score if the game went on for a week.

But the second half was completely different. Spirit and determination. With a bit more luck and a better referee would would have won.

From talk of Braintree away next season there was a belief in the stand and I think on the pitch, that we can stay up.