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NOTE: SORRY FOR THE WALL OF TEXT, BUT THESE THINGS HAVE BEEN GRINDING ME FOR AAAAGES, FELT LIKE FINALLY HAVING A RANT ABOUT IT!!! :devil:

1. The Premier League

No, not the huge amount of foreigners playing in it, if we had no foreign players to come and introduce us to a bit of flair and panache then god knows what kind of football we'd be reduced to. It's more the style of football that the Premier League demands; when it's practically the only league in the world where the average midfielder seems to need to be 6 foot-plus, strong in the tackle and 'industrious' and then every other international midfield runs rings around us, we know something is wrong. Now, in terms of excitement, seeing Steven Gerrard surge past two oppositions players, elbows flying everywhere, and smash the ball into the top corner from 25 yards because the defence has parted like the Red Sea, is excellent. However, the thrill is lessened somewhat when The People's Republic of Whereistan are passing pretty little circles all around our 'heel-snapping' midfield, even more so when their infinitely less 'all-action' (I'm looking at you, JT) yet infinitely more disciplined defence doesn't allow dear Stevie G to get anything even resembling a shot off.

I honestly think it would be better for the domestic and international game if we were to ship more players off abroad; even if it were for a couple of years, the technique and intelligence required to play in the Spanish or German leagues, for example, would give us a lot better understanding and capability of playing possession football on the international stage. We complain about no chances for young players, so why don't they go abroad? I absolutely refuse to believe that they couldn't find places in European leagues, not just the major ones but the Dutch, the Belgian, the Portuguese all have very high standards of football. Every other country exports many top players in comparison to ours. In midfield alone, think of Gascoigne, Hoddle, Hargreaves, McManaman, Hughes, Ince, Platt. Any number of them with Lineker and Owen up front, imagine it.

2. The fans

How often have you heard whistles of derision as a team patiently works the ball around the park, looking for an opening in the opposition? How often, when a ball falls to a defender when a striker is within a country mile of him does somebody scream "get rid of it!!!!"? How often have you yourself yelled at a player to just "get in the mixer!"? We are our own worst enemies, simultaneously bemoaning the lack of skillful, possession-based football and castrating our teams when they attempt to implement it. It is sad that the patience of the Liverpool supporters with Brendan Rogers and his more 'European' style of football is an exception rather than the rule.

Of course, when your premier club competition practically encourages aggressive challenges and you are faced with a team full of players selected for their side, speed and the strength of their shot rather than for intelligence and skill on the ball, you might be forgiven for getting slightly frustrated by some of our nation's more 'lightweight' players. Whilst we certainly don't help the equation, I am almost certain that we are only as negative as we are towards the idea of changing our nation's style of football because of the following:

3. Our attitude

I purposefully referred to 'European' football in the last section to highlight a glaring misnomer in the English train of footballing thought. Keeping the ball, staying organised and playing with intelligence isn't the 'European' way of playing football, it's everybody's way of playing football!!! We're not rebelling against some Euro-spending, Brussels-fawning vision of European dross, we're sticking our heads in the sand while the world moves on around us!

Let's just take as an example of our attitude four friends having a kick-around down the local park. I have been in this scenario, I'm certain you will have been. The ball gets brought out, the four friends spread out a good 15, 20 meters apart, and proceed to loft the ball to each other in turn. Whilst it's a wonderful show of just how far you can kick the ball accurately, and how well you can control a pass that you've had a good few seconds to gauge and react to, it's an abject lesson in how we have gone so wrong in our whole attitude to football.

Even in club training when we try and implement 'keep-ball' sessions, we go about it completely the wrong way. Squeezing the pitch down to a tiny area, we fill it with as many players as it will hold and encourage them to 'pass it about'. What follows is a brutal maceration of the smaller players by the large, James Milner types, who then shield the ball from harms way, knocking one or two simple passes to teammates as the opposition lose their discipline and attempt to tackle him en masse. If at any point in a football match there are 16 players in a penalty box-sized area, it's because it's a corner. Teams that play possession football do so by making use of the space on a pitch; when they play a succession of neat, short passed between players, it's rarely more than three or four of their players performing the play, in a short burst of intense movement and speed. They will have already pulled the opposition team about by passing it from side to side, forward and back, probing for a weakness, whilst most of the players are meters apart. The small-scale moments of dazzling footwork and interplay are very much the climax of the move, not the body of it.

Let's take a look at some of the recent stars of our national team. What words would you use to describe John Terry? Frank Lampard? Steven Gerrard? Andy Carroll? I can honestly say that I am worried every time Joleon Lescott has the ball at his feet, whereas ball-playing defenders like Rio Ferdinand are marginalised. Whilst Wayne Rooney is an undoubted talent, and Jack Wilshere's emergence is hugely promising, why have we allowed the likes of Paul Scholes, Joe Cole and Michael Carrick to have either preposterously short international careers or be forced to play on the wings to accommodate our 'all-action' centre midfielders. Remember what a breath of fresh air Owen Hargreaves was before he got injured? It's players like him who hold teams together. Players who don't build their reputation on steaming into challenges, making 'surging' runs and performing miraculous diving clearances (that would have been unnecessary had they done their jobs properly in the first place) are like gold dust in the English game.

One particular moment always springs to mind when I think about footballing philosophy, it was when the Netherlands (as it happens, my team) played England in a friendly some years ago. I think it was 1-0 to Holland at half time, and replays were showing an Englishman diving into a challenge, full aggression. Not two-footed, but enough that if the Dutch player hadn't jumped then he would have sustained a serious injury (on that note, I swear the Laws of the Game state that if an opponent has to jump your challenge then it's a foul...). Patrick Kluivert commented that in Holland that kind of challenge is known as a 'leg breaker'. Gary Lineker delivered a hearty, English lad laugh and jestingly explained 'in England we call it a 50/50 challenge'.

Whilst the idea of strong, aggressive ball winning isn't in itself bad, this comment sums up the protective, almost proud attitude we have towards our 'get rid of it, stick it in the mixer, foreigners don't like it up 'em ' brand of football that we've persisted with for years. In times gone by, when there were only a score of nations with decent infrastructure, we could get it away with it. However, now that more and more countries are building national academies and churning out technically-proficient, tactically-disciplined players, English football has been weighed, English football has been measured, and English football has been found wanting.

Agree with pretty well all of this, except for the reference in your first line to the 'huge amount of foreigners'. Should be 'huge number of foreigners'. (Sorry. Being pedantic!)

I'm a poet; the English language is mine to do with as a I please

madgull wrote:I'm a poet; the English language is mine to do with as a I please

And when you're done with it, it may still be English, but not as we know it..

madgull i just have one thing to say....



that has got to be the best thing i have ever read on here about our football.

all the points you have made were spot on. all of those points have become more and more apparent and even the most bias and stubborn, bloody minded pundits, experts, journalists and commentators are starting to realise it.

on talksport a lot of these problems have been raised more and more lately with many people calling in expressing similar exasperation at the state of our game and the archaic, stuck in the past, one dimensional mindset we are in.

many believe it comes from coaching style and methods and i definitely agree. there have been many coaches and parents who have called into the radio who are frustrated with the way our kids are expected to be taught, or the requirements from teams that skill isnt the main attribute being looked for but size, pace and physicality is what is wanted. also as said before "being industrious".

there are many who feel the FA coaching badges are utter b0ll0cks and the manual needs to be torn up, rewritten and we should start again. this is from people who have done badges as well.

by the sound of it there are many players who are far more skillful who get cast aside along the way than many who have forged a career in various leagues because of their size, pace and physicality. there are many opinions and stories of coaching certain skills and individual talents out of many players by the time they are of an age to break through.

the likes of arsene wenger are often accused of this, there are many who feel he has taken players like walcott and oxlade chamberlain and tried to forge them into something they are not whilst curbing their individuality, instincts and maverick traits. hence the expression "they have been wengerised".when this happens to some of these players do they always become better or do they look worse players than they did before? is it not their skills that attract the attention of those managers who want to sign them in the first place.

a lot of the problem with managers and coaches of teams these days is they dont trust their players enough or allow them to play the way they know or can. its an all too often mentality recently of being too frightened of losing which makes teams play too cautious, defensive and conservative. this then makes it harder to try and win. because of these things a lot odf our football is becoming very boring. (ling) (many prem teams)

this mentality also stops a lot of prem league managers giving youth a chance as it is all about instant success and buying the finished article to try and achieve success.there is not enough patience by the board, club or fans.

is it not an expression "attack is the best form of defence".surely more attacking and shots on goal gives you greater odds and chance of winning.

these days we hear the expression "holding midfielder" or "defensive midfielder", "a sitting midfielder who breaks up the play and protects the back four", "one midfielder to stay and one to go". we never used to hear all that crap. theres even some teams now that have 2 staying back. the whole team should work hard to keep the ball, starting from the front. then the whole team should work hard to get it back. barcelona have had it right with their 7 second rule of getting the ball back, generally it works.

isnt it the defenders job to defend? if the ball is lost and the other team is breaking, everyone should be busting their nuts to get it back. who should be moving faster the players who are running with a football or those without it. how many goals are actually stopped by a holding midfielder? how many goals are given away by a holding midfielder not being in his position?

does 1 player staying back at all times in midfield really make all that much difference. wouldnt it be better to have an experienced defender who can actually read the game stepping up to snuff out any danger.im not saying go "gung ho" but why is so much fuss made about "defensive midfielders".

whilst i agree it is about team work and knowing your job/role and creating certain patterns and styles of play we should be encouraging our players, especially from an early age to be expressive, learn how to keep the ball and show some individual skill and flair.

indeed, it often gets mentioned that there hasnt been a player as good or with as much individual skill in english football as paul gascoigne in his prime. now that was a long time ago. its a disgrace really. scholes was near but got treated like crap by england to accommodate players not fit to clean his boots, like hoddle went through before them both.

the likes of wilshere and rooney get these sorts of plaudits, but neither are even close. that shows how few and far between these sorts of players are, we find a couple who are good and hype them up to be world class. rooney looked like being that player when he first came along but is nowhere near what his potential suggested or he is/was hyped up to be. has he had it coached out of him, is he not allowed to use his own mind on the pitch and express himself or is he just over rated and over hyped?

a lot of foreign players are far superior to players like those 2, even from smaller countries, its not just that someone is better because they are spanish, italian, french, belgian or german its because of their coaching, education, training, effort and mentality.

there have recently been various foreign coaches and british coaches who have worked around the world slamming our coaching criteria and systems as being archaic, out of date and awful.

there are coaches who have tried to change things and make our techniques more skill based and they have been met with hostility and defensive, awkward behaviour.

it is a belief by those high up in our game that england in the next 15 years will spawn a team of world beaters because the FA have spent over 100 million and built st georges park and that with its facillities that are the best in the world this will guarantee our success.

well as many with a bit of sense have said facillities dont make good players, coaches do. if they had invested a quarter of that money into grass roots football, learning a proper football education and producing decent coaches then we would be more likely to achieve success.

starting at the FA our whole game, coaching and attitude has to change and quickly or our national side will never improve, we will eventually stop attracting decent players here and then it will all go to pieces and even the beloved premier league will be ruined.

that'll do...... FOR NOW!

You're completely right, chunkygull. The particular problem we have is that when we want a 'holding player' to play in the Pirlo kind of position, we give it to a meat-head who is all about 'breaking and taking'; when we do put someone in the role in the Carrick kind of mould, we then surround him with THE SAME KIND OF STRENGTH OVER SKILL PLAYER.

I'd really, REALLY love to get into coaching kids football, it's a subject that I'm very passionate about, but as you say I'm increasingly worried that we need to rip the whole manual up and start again. Even if we fail for a while, or even FOREVER (we're not setting the world on fire right now, are we?) I'd rather us go down fighting and playing good football. Do you remember when we (Torquay we) played against Birmingham in the cup at Plainmoor, back in the Leroy era when we'd just gone down to League 2? We drew 0-0, but for 90 minutes we played them off the park through sheer determination and willingness to get it down and pass it. Sure, we went back to their place and were comfortably beaten, but I'll take that every time! (Barring relegation, which, if you're playing the right way, you shouldn't be flirting with ANYWAY).

Thank you for the complement, I tend to get ranty late at night!

yes, i remember that game v birmingham. we out thought and out fought them. we mixed it up a bit with a bit of battling but we still got the ball down and played. we hit the post in the second half with a shot from way out (who was it?).

good passing football on the deck will be the beating of most teams every time. it has been seen and proven often enough. players can be coached enough and have it drilled into them.

always blaming players when things go wrong is poor, lazy coaching, the same as when managers get the blame when it is obvious some players dont put enough effort in or dont do what they are supposed to.

too many managers try and re-invent the game too much now, well over doing it with different tactics, which amount to and look and sound utter bull$h!t and b0ll0cks. pure, simple, passing to feet football will be the beating of most teams more or less every time.

Clubs like Coventry City. These clubs need to start folding. It's only fair and proper and if they wish to start again (like the smaller clubs have done ) then by all means they can do so. These so called big clubs need to stop having protection and they must go under for others to begin taking notice.

AustrianAndyGull wrote:Clubs like Coventry City. These clubs need to start folding. It's only fair and proper and if they wish to start again (like the smaller clubs have done ) then by all means they can do so. These so called big clubs need to stop having protection and they must go under for others to begin taking notice.

I'm agreeing with Andy. Must go and have a lie down.
I've been saying this for years - clubs like Portsmouth, Leeds and the rest, who spend fortunes in the knowledge that there are no real consequences ruin things for those clubs that try to stick within their budget.

Wayne Rooney is a prime example of how bad coaching is in this country. When he left Everton he was a two-footed pacy striker no more happy than with the ball at his feet looking to dribble past opponents. In his time at Man Utd he has forgotten he has a left foot, lost most of his pace and I can't remember the last time I saw him dribble. Most of his reputation today seems to be based on a rose-tinted view of how everyone expected him to play after fulfilling his early potential rather than the player he has actually become.
The trouble is this isn't a new problem. Look at Hoddle and Waddle. How exciting would England have been with Waddle playing in the middle rather than shuffled out to the wing. Just like Joe Cole after him and probably Oxlade-Chamberlain in the coming years.

brilliant, in a nutshell.

coaching, managers, systems, tactics, too much rotation etc knocking all individuality, expression, form, positivity and skills out of players.

similarly to the rooney scenario -

listen on the radio to many southampton and arsenal fans about what they say about alex oxlade chamberlain and theo walcott. both players after being at arsenal for a while stopped expressing theirselves, stopped doing the things they were good at and seemed to lose a lot of their individuality.

hence the phrase "they've been wengerised" was coined.

hasnt really helped arsenal or england that much has it.

PhilGull wrote:Wayne Rooney is a prime example of how bad coaching is in this country. When he left Everton he was a two-footed pacy striker no more happy than with the ball at his feet looking to dribble past opponents.

Now, don't laugh, but I'm going to give you another example of a what PhilGull has described above.

Emile Heskey.

Seriously - look at his time at Leicester and the first couple of years at Liverpool. He was brilliant. Fearless in taking the ball past defenders, strong, quick, could shoot with both feet. We coached it out of him. Because he was big and strong we end up deciding that he'd be better as a 'big man up top' winning flick ons for smaller players to run on to, which directly led to his becoming a bit of a laughing stock.

The Emile Heskey that terrified defences in his few seasons was a terrific player, and I genuinely feel he could have become one of our best ever. The player he became later on is a sad indictment of the kind of things that English coaches and managers have valued for years; spirit, strength, physicality - over things like ability, talent and unpredictability.

happytorq wrote: Now, don't laugh, but I'm going to give you another example of a what PhilGull has described above.

Emile Heskey.

Seriously - look at his time at Leicester and the first couple of years at Liverpool. He was brilliant. Fearless in taking the ball past defenders, strong, quick, could shoot with both feet. We coached it out of him. Because he was big and strong we end up deciding that he'd be better as a 'big man up top' winning flick ons for smaller players to run on to, which directly led to his becoming a bit of a laughing stock.

The Emile Heskey that terrified defences in his few seasons was a terrific player, and I genuinely feel he could have become one of our best ever. The player he became later on is a sad indictment of the kind of things that English coaches and managers have valued for years; spirit, strength, physicality - over things like ability, talent and unpredictability.

That's a good point about Big Emile. I was at uni at Leicester during his time there and he was one of the most exciting young wingers around.

agree about heskey. when he first came on the scene at leicester then liverpool signed him he looked the business.

he ran with the ball and put the fear of god into the opposition.later on at liverpool the way he played was completely changed and he looked a shadow of the player he could have been.

sometimes these players who show all the exciting potential, later on have to change and adapt the way they play because of injuries they have suffered. but in most cases it is down to their club, coaching, team tactics and systems. does doing this to players really help produce results ?