Anyone see a way out of this?

[Richinns]

I just cannot for the life of me see where a win will come from. I was not at the game yesterday but judging by what has been said - that was the right call. We seemed destined for the BSP once more and this time I fear this will be our home for the foreseeable. I see a path being laid out in front of us much like the reality Lincoln and Cambridge find themselves in.

[RN Gull]

I concour - this group of players will take us down. The body language was evident yesterday. If Mr nil can get at least 3 fresh players in (winger, forward, midfield) it could change - but i have this horrible feeling we are heading to the conference. BTW i am normally an optimist!

PLEASE yellows prove me wrong!!!

[Modgull]

Let's not get too despondent yet. Whilst I am leaning towards the same view - if you take a look at the other fans forums (or is it fora?) for the other Clubs in the relegation scrap they all have similar views and it will still only be two from those five or six who actually go down.

[CP Gull]

Sadly no, I feel this squad of players is too damaged by the events of the last few months and this allied to poor leadership at the top will see us relegated.

Our demise has been predicted by quite a few on here for months now and yet the only action taken has been an enforced change of Manager and the recruitment of a striker, who has lost his way and has dodgy knees and just the ONE decent addition in Labadie.

Unfortunately, complacency is one of the biggest dangers to any football club ... It's very often what happens when giants are knocked out by minnows in the FACup and it's what, in my opinion, has been the root cause of our problems.

The only way that we could be saved now is for a major overhaul at the club. Personally I don't think there has been enough attention paid to the football side of things, we have forgotten that that is our core business, in fact it's what it's whole existence is all about. We seem, to me at least, to have lost that link between the team and it's owners.

Like others,I have heard rumours about why Lingy is absent (not going to repeat them here) but what I will say is that it suggests to me that the Board haven't been paying close enough attention. Once Colin Lee ( for all his faults) left we lost that key individual who was close to both the Board and the Football team and although I know there is absolutely zero chance of his returning, someone like him should I feel be recruited in the summer, should we miraculously survive in the League.

The appointment of Knill is beginning to look like a poor one just now. He has been unable to motivate the team and even more crucially he hasn't been able to recruit the players we so desperately need. Given that Simon Baker put a "Manager with good contacts" at the top of his shopping list it is beginning to look like a poor choice. in other circumstances I'm pretty sure Knill would make a good Manager for TUFC, given time, but I'm beginning to have my doubts as to whether he is the firefighter we need in this situation, he is considerably hampered by the fact that all his Management experience and it seems contacts are all in the North!

His team selection and use of substitutions are also beginning to frustrate me. Why did Leadbitter, who had been playing reasonably well, get jettisoned from the squad, and replaced with the woeful (and he has been all season quite frankly) Joe Oastler? Why, did we not make more use of the subs bench yesterday?

If we are to persist with Knill, he needs to work with his own man I.e. Chris Brass and nice guy that he is Shaun Taylor needs to be given his P45. He (Taylor)is part of the failed Mangement team and he should be moved on ... the rumours doing the rounds yesterday were that Lingy has been sacked, not sure if there is any truth in it but either way Taylor should go.

If Knill isn't the answer then I don't know who is, possibly Buckle( at the game yesterday) having worked with a fair few of the players might be able to motivate them. Someone certainly needs to as their confidence is at rock bottom.

We know we need to recruit 3 or 4 players (send Benyon back) but I'm beginning to feel even that may not be enough now. We even know the areas we badly need to strenghthen too, but as each week passes as each game goes by we are sinking deeper and deeper and NOTHING is being done.

Quite simply that is not good enough and so I would also like to see a change at the top as well. Simon Baker, who has overseen this mess, should fall on his sword and be replaced. As to who should replace him, well personally I would advocate Alex Rowe, even if it's only on a temporary basis to the end of the season. He has done the job before and has done it well.

Without any action, of the type detailed above, we ARE going down .... wth a whimper, sadly!

[brucie]

No we are gone.

[Jerry]

Quite simply that is not good enough and so I would also like to see a can be at the top as well. Simon Baker, who has overseen this mess, should fall on his sord and be replaced. As to who should replace him, we'll personally I would advocate Alex Rowe, even if it's only on a temporary basis to the end of the season. He has done the job before and done it well.

I have no idea how the board operates but surely these directors who we are told would have done a much better job than Baker (wouldn't be hard) are equally culpable for sitting back and letting it happen.

Doesn't Baker's position as chairman just mean that he is the public face of the board as opposed to some sort of all powerful dictator?

[tufcbrett]

Were stay up. There's enough in that team, a few mistakes cost us yesterday. I still believe we can still do it. Either way up if were staying or going down we need a big change around.

[CP Gull]

I have no idea how the board operates but surely these directors who we are told would have done a much better job than Baker (wouldn't be hard) are equally culpable for sitting back and letting it happen.

Doesn't Baker's position as chairman just mean that he is the public face of the board as opposed to some sort of all powerful dictator?

Unfortunately, I feel that part of the problem at TUFC is that it's all well and good having half of Torbay's business community on our Board ... from an investment point of view, the more the merrier BUT having what is it 10 or 11 Directors (lost count) must make it difficult when it comes to decision making.

I have no idea how the Board operates on a day to day basis, but I would suggest that given the sheer numbers of people involved there is highly unlikely to be consensus on all matters TUFC. I cannot believe that everyone agrees, all of the time, on all policy matters ... there would surely be some pulling in one direction and some pulling in others with the "majority" holding sway.

When you had someone like Mike Bateson, his autocratic style did give us an advantage in situations like this because when HE (not all 10 or 11) saw there was a problem, HE dealt with it. He didn't always get it right but at least he acted decisively. In any situation like this, where such a large group has to decide on a course of action it is sometimes the case that one or two individuals do tend to take the lead and steer the rest, which may well have been happening to us.

I should add that I have nothing personally against Simon Baker (he is clearly a very nice guy!), or indeed any of the Directors, to whom I will always be grateful in saving our Football Club, but I sense that things could have been dealt with better this season and sadly we look like paying a high price for that. Of course, a change at the top might not make any difference at all to the outcome, but when a business, and let's not forget that our business is FOOTBALL and nothing else, is failing like ours then inevitably you have got to look at how well that business is being led, being driven, and very often that leads to change at the top.

[Gulliball]

We have to stay up. We have made big improvements off the pitch in the last year, and as long as we stay in the league then we have those to built on, and we do have a few good players in the squad despite the mess we're in at the moment. The manager this summer will have a lot of scope to build his own squad for next year as we only have 8 players under contract. With the exception of Saah, Downes and Howe the players under contract are the better half of the squad.

If we go down, then we're staying down. We don't have a benefactor willing to fund the £1.3m losses we made in our two year stint last time. The budget will have to be cut to cope with the loss of £600k per year that being in the football league brings. The new stand will be empty and the new youth system will lose its funding and we won't be protected against the better ones leaving for other teams without compensation.

These 10 games will decide the future of the club. It can still be bright, but we have to stay up and then have a good summer in terms of player recruitment (and probably managerial appointment).

[hector]

I find it hard to believe that Simon Baker acts on his own. With a consortium, one imagines that there is at least some sort of consensus on major decisions, unless day-to-day running is delegated to Baker and Phillips...I really have no idea, but one would hope that the other directors are involved and I find it hard to understand that ALL of them are happy to sit by and do nothing. On one of the other threads someone has suggested that non-league football suits the boards agenda. I just cannot believe that. I cannot believe that all eleven or however many it is, would all agree to collude in a relegation plot without any of them breaking ranks. In fact I find it hard to accept that they appear to have done just that while we sink out of the league without they being any obvious rancour and fallout from the board.

It certainly isn't a money saver being non-league. It is a money loser. The loss of youth scheme money, less season ticket revenue, smaller home crowds, virtually no away following...it really will mark the end of the club as we know it.

[AustrianAndyGull]

Let's not get too despondent yet. Whilst I am leaning towards the same view - if you take a look at the other fans forums (or is it fora?) for the other Clubs in the relegation scrap they all have similar views and it will still only be two from those five or six who actually go down.

Quality!

In response to this though Modgull, you may be correct in that each fans forum ( or fora :~D ) of teams at the bottom of our league will have a greater percentage of fans that think they are doomed and some that think they will be safe. That is natural. However if we take some clubs in isolation.

ACCRINGTON: Struggle to score goals like us but were capable of knocking 3 in away at Rochdale the other week and they can grind out draws, they have some seriously winnable games approaching and they have taken action by signing Francis Jeffers. For those of you that say he's a has been, you'd turn him away if he came to Plainmoor then right? I'd say their plight looks a lot better than ours at the minute.

PLYMOUTH: Also struggle to score goals but have notched more than one recently and have won 3 of their last 9 games. The only reason i think they will be relegated is looking at their remaining fixtures. They are SERIOUSLY tough. That said, they have won 3 of their last 9 and we've won 1 of our last 340 so it is possible for them to get out of it. In my opinion they won't though.

AFC WIMBLEDON: Only lost 3 of their last 11 and one of those an away defeat at Port Vale. They have scored 2 or more in 5 of their last 14 games including winning 3-2 at our place and also yesterdays 3-2 win at home to York. Signed a few loanees and although the crazy gang spirit died with the old Wombles, i certainly see spirit, committment, belief and attitude in their squad. I don't see it in ours. Again, like Plymouth they have some extremely tough fixtures ahead and it will be touch and go for them in the end.

ALDERSHOT: Lost 1 of their last 7 and the new manager impetus that Scott saw when taking over has led to an upturn in form. Our new manager impetus has saw us become even crapper. Again, they are grinding out draws interspersed with the odd win and odd defeat and are slowly accumulating points and i think they will be safe. As is a feature of teams down at the bottom they generally don't score many goals but they are now learning to get results week in week out. Some tough fixtures left to play but overall i think they will be safe.

YORK CITY: Similarly to us they are on a simply horrendous run of form, yesterdays 3-2 defeat at Wimbledon the first time they had scored more than 2 goals since the 1st of January. Still a month ahead of the last time WE scored 2 goals though. They draw a hell of a lot of games and have done so at Gillingham, Rotherham and Oxford but they have been on the end of some hammerings which we haven't generally speaking. I don't know what to say about how York will do from here on in as their fixture list is by far the 'easiest' of all down the bottom and they have installed Nigel Worthington as new manager so they could get the new manager impetus if you forget yesterdays game. I'd be concerned for them big time if they had one of the other teams fixtures but i think they can comfortably win a few of their remianing games. Safe.

BARNET: Looking at their fixtures and how they've picked up these last 2 months they will be safe IMO.

TORQUAY: Dodgy fixtures, a few winnable ones if we could only look like winning and added Joss Labadie. Benyon was a huge mistake and never going to fit into our way of playing so complete waste of time and money (not his fault ) whilst other teams seem to have identified players they need that will fit their systems and gone out and got them. It's just our Torquay Comedy Club that brings in 2 players, 1 of which is pointless and fails to bring in a couple of big strikers who would make us dangerous at set pieces, crosses and give us another outlet.

In my honest opinion most of our squad is certainly mid table material with a few exceptions who shouldn't really be playing football at all but that is irrelevant.

The question is this: DOES ANYONE SEE A WAY OUT OF THIS?

If we accept that our players are generally rubbish and the better ones have underperformed then we have a starting point to work from. I know most of will not agree with me at all with this and say it's different scenarios but hear me out.
If the players aren't very good then i accept that BUT there is no reason why a team of crap footballers cannot beat teams with other crap footballers or not so crap footballers in them. For example, Oldham Athletic beat Liverpool in the FA Cup recently and they drew with Everton. They did this by approaching each game with a mentality that defied their relative league positions. They played a high tempo, didn't give the opposition time on the ball, got balls slung in the box to cause problems and just went for it. What was the worst that could happen? They would lose but if they had played like Barnsley did at Man City and shut up shop from the off they would have lost anyway.

What i am saying is that if you get inferior players with the right attitude and who want to go out from the kick off wanting desperately to win a football match, often they can. I've said it before on many occasions this season about our away form. I've seen 13 away games and we've won 1, 2-0 at York where we had 2 half chances and took them both, second half we were mullered. Games like that aren't going to happen regularly where you keep it nil at the back, nick a chance and you win. That was Lings entire gameplan and this season it hasn't remotely looked like working. Out of those games i've seen we've scored 6 goals, less than 0.5 goals per game. The problem is that we generally concede so we were never going to win many games of football with this attitude. I am a betting man and i reckon that being more dynamic and positive away from home this season ( like teams are in the FA Cup ) then we wouldn't even be talking about relegation now.

That is in the past now and all i'm saying is that Knill has to send the players out there like a low quality non league team in a cup tie. We might lose 6 or 7 but we might win 3 or 4 and THAT could be the difference in staying up and going down IMO. Crap players can win football games with the right attitude and application. One thing is for sure, if we don't change our approach then we're going down anyway. Take Daggers and Southend this week. Most of us expect 2 defeats and a couple of shots on target at best given the way we are expected to play and our recent form so why the f*ck don't we just go out there and let rip. If we get beat then it's nothing that we didn't expect although we might be pleasantly surprised that defeats from positive attacking showings can show us that we know the team has something left to give. It would be unacceptable to carry on this madness in the same vein and be happy with a point at best from Daggers and certain defeat at Southend. Knill talks about aiming high and making the players believe we can get out of this so why doesn't he show the same like taking games to teams, making reasonably sensible team selections and substitutions and the like. These next 2 away games are critical and i would just like Knill to take a look back at our away games all this season and remember that mantra that someone on here said not long back, it was something like madness is not changing anything and expecting different results. We've got pace and some power in attacking areas Knill so f*cking start using them!!

If not the answer to the question is NOT A HOPE IN HELL