Torquay United without Mansell

[tomogull]

Hilarious! If you believe any of that to be true, then forgive my scepticism on any judgement you make on a footballer!

The case with Mansell is simple, bar a couple of seasons when he was surrounded by a talented team, he has always been a lower League Two-upper Conference player. That he made the most of Eunan next to him and notched a dozen goals, a place in the L2 Team of the Season, and a bumper contract was a credit to him. Expecting Knill or Hargreaves to be able to offload him or Nicholson has always been fanciful given the deals they were rewarded with.

Onto his position in the team at present, there seems to be a lot of contradiction among supporters. Some want experience, lament the quality and naivety of loanees, and question whether short-term signings even care. Even Harding - the early season scapegoat - is being heralded as a better alternative. Despite a chronic lack of form over the last two years, and a dwindling of what ability he did have, Mansell was by far the standout of our central midfielders at the league leaders just two games ago.

With Labadie unavailable, Harding unfit and Craig yet again unfancied, we need to hope our captain can use his experience of relegation battles (some successful, others not) to help drag us away from what seems like the inevitable drop.

Torquay supporters have had a rough deal over the last eighteenth months, but that's no excuse for the poisonous place Plainmoor has become. Familiarity - not just with defeat but with certain players - seems to have bred a lot of contempt. Mansell, Stevens and Benyon frequently feel the brunt. It really is time for this to stop, no matter how bleak our situation.

Chris - that's one of the best postings on here for weeks

[brucie]

Got to say that I didn't see or hear anything which was poisonous. There were a few boos at the final whistle but that was it. Stevens got a round of applause when he came on and I didn't hear anyone barrack him at all.
In fact the players were applauded off by quite a few supporters in the bench. For the life of me I cannot think why. No abuse was given to our players at all.

[ferrarilover]

Haha, no, of course Chris, you're right, Manse is clearly the best player in the division. He's scored so many goals, provided so many assists, been voted MOTM, got into the L2 TOTW, won L2 POTM so many times and has been the subject of so many bids from so many top clubs that it's a miracle he isn't turning out for Bayern in the CL.

By any quantitive test or qualititive observation, Manse is miles below the standard required. If you see that as scapegoating rather than an objective assessment, that's your prerogative, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

Matt.

[hector]

I see it somewhere between Chris and Matt. I think Mansell is past his best. Nor has he played very well. However, would we miss his leadership? His captaincy? May be, may be not.

But what I do not like to hear is the same people who a year or so ago were chanting 'Lee, Lee, Lee Mansell' now yelling abuse at him.

[Chris B]

Haha, no, of course Chris, you're right, Manse is clearly the best player in the division. He's scored so many goals, provided so many assists, been voted MOTM, got into the L2 TOTW, won L2 POTM so many times and has been the subject of so many bids from so many top clubs that it's a miracle he isn't turning out for Bayern in the CL.

By any quantitive test or qualititive observation, Manse is miles below the standard required. If you see that as scapegoating rather than an objective assessment, that's your prerogative, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

Matt.

See, what you've done there, Matt, is totally ignore what I've written. For your benefit, I'll repeat my assessment: Mansell has always been a lower L2-upper Conference player, his form has been largely poor for two years, and he's losing what footballing ability he did have. In effect, he's now probably a bang average Conference midfielder. Irrespective of whether we survive or not, I would only retain him if he was willing to take a severe pay cut and accept the prospect of losing the captaincy.

Now, onto your point about the 'required standard' – the league table does indeed suggest Mansell and the rest of the team is below what is needed to avoid relegation. Unfortunately, we are not blessed with the option of selecting players contracted or loaned to other clubs in League Two. Our options are limited to a whole squad of players who have proven to be – to borrow a phrase - below the standard required by any quantitive test or qualitative observation.

In central midfield, the suspended Labadie has been somewhat disappointing second time around, the steady Lathrope will never provide the goals or assists we all yearn for, and it would be disingenuous to suggest an unfit Harding is the answer, given you no doubt called him the worst player in the Football League six months ago. All I am saying is, at the number one ranked team in the division, Lee Mansell was by the far the pick of our central midfielders. As such, I'm suggesting his selection is far from inexplicable.

[Chris B]

Got to say that I didn't see or hear anything which was poisonous. There were a few boos at the final whistle but that was it. Stevens got a round of applause when he came on and I didn't hear anyone barrack him at all.
In fact the players were applauded off by quite a few supporters in the bench. For the life of me I cannot think why. No abuse was given to our players at all.

My point was not one about Saturday's match in particular - I think an equally unhelpful, though at least undestandable, inertia has started to set in on the terraces at Plainmoor. Negative comments aimed at our players won't help our cause, though, but I suspect it's wishful thinking to hope people will refrain. As for Stevens, I was referring primarily to the latter months of his first stint at the club, not 10 mins last weekend.

[brucie]

No fair enough - your last post was spot on the money. Mansell is in the team because we havn't really got anything better as you say.

[ferrarilover]

So he's been shit and largely talentless for two years, yet he has one good game and you think that justifies his endless selection? Good shout.

Matt.

[Chris B]

So he's been sh*t and largely talentless for two years, yet he has one good game and you think that justifies his endless selection? Good shout.

Matt.

Given the lack of ability, fitness, experience, and availability of our other options, it's a very reluctant yes from me.

It's clear you don't like Mansell, and I've shared my own fairly damning verdict. But let's be frank, I don't think you rate alternatives like Lathrope or Harding highly, either, particularly when it comes to bossing a midfield or chipping in with much needed goals or assists.

[ferrarilover]

It's not clear I don't like him. I've started explicitly that that isn't the case in this very thread. I was (rightly) critical of Harding at first, but in the two or three games preceding his injury, he was very good indeed. Lathrope couldn't possibly be worse than Manse going forward (you can't get fewer than zero assists, zero goals) and probably offers more at the back (again, Lee gets skinned pretty much every time, how much worse can Lathrope do?)
The answer is a three man affair of Harding, Craig and Lathrope. Dorchester is only a 90 minute drive in a slow car, Nath can easily be back for kick off tonight...

Matt.

[Chris B]

Oh good, is he injured? Worst player I've seen in L2. Couldn't pass water. He can f*** off with his "hard work" and "passion". I've checked and the league don't give out points for "doing your best".

In addition to this you've felt the need to tell him you think he's not a good enough footballer and said you couldn't care less about the man himself. By no means am I suggesting you have a vendetta against him, nor do I think we should hero worship players who represent us for more than the standard year or two, but my conclusion is that you don't like Lee Mansell.

Fact remains that Lathrope has never scored a goal, and Mansell was much the better of the two at Chesterfield. In any case, the latter is unavailable tonight, and I desperately hope the side will be transformed in his absence as some seem to expect.

As for your suggested line-up, maybe that will prove a successful trio in central midfield in the longer term. Objectively, though, do you really think the answer in our predicament is to pluck a player from the Conference South and another, who performed well twice out of a dozen games, and is fresh from the treatment table? In truth, it might be the only option and worth a try.

[ferrarilover]

You've quoted me saying something unsavoury about his performance at work. It's got nothing to do with the man himself. The bloke who goes to Sainsburys, the man who takes his kiddies swimming, the man who walks his dog on a Sunday morning. That bloke I couldn't care less about. The man he is at work, when he is handsomely paid on the pretence that he's a FL standard player is the one who draws such ire.

You're back on this Chesterfield game again. There have been plenty of games in which DL has been better than Manse, so that's a moot point. In the event, the side without Manse tonight was infinitely better than the side with Manse against Accrington. How much of that was as a direct result of LM being missing, we'll never know for sure.

We're not plucking players from the Conference South. Being on loan at a side does not put you at that level (as well you know). Two of the three did pretty well today. The primary criticism of Craig is his lack of strength. Well, he's a damn sight stronger than Stevens and he didn't seem to struggle tonight. So, basically, we'd have the midfield that performed to the same standard as that of auto-promotion candidates Burton, plus a stronger player than Danny, a better header than Danny, a better passer than Danny, a better crossed than Danny, a better set piece man than Danny and a better shooter than Danny.

Still, what do I know...

Matt.

[Scott Brehaut]

Still, what do I know...

Matt.

The Theft Act 1968?

[tomogull]

Lee Mansell was not missed tonight. Chris - you can't compare Mansell with Lathrope as they play different roles, Lathrope being a defensive midfielder sitting in front of the back four and Mansell an attacking midfielder. I thought Lathrope was immense tonight.

[ferrarilover]

The Theft Act 1968?

What is it with you and this infernal Act?

Matt.