The decline is niegh

[hector]

Thanks Mat,knew I could count on you to respond to my posting,unfortunatly you have not convinced me that my thoughts and predictions are not correct.Sorry but forty seven years are forty seven years so it begins,1 Terminal decline as you say is death to torquay ,I did not mention terminal i say decline,no need to be over dramatic.I do not think Torquay will die,just decline into the conference area 2,Wonderfull facts(I take it they are correct,I do not have the time to recherch,I have a life),but unfortunatly these figures are all in the past,I am talking about the future.3,yep its true we have not been in the conference south,what I am saying is would we ever get out of the conference,last time we had a manager with a lot of conference knowledge and a budget that made us a BIG club in that division,would that happen again?4,Your ideas on lottery winners are truely bizzare,I must ask Dave Wheelan, Mr Abramavitch (sorry for the miss spelling) and the guy who owns the JacksonvilleJaguars who bought fulham let alone the arab owners of manchester city if one, they have a couple of bob more than our beloved chairperson and why they did not take the wonderfull opertunity of picking up Torquay United,perhaps its because all three clubs have massive potential ,in areas of great population,and in three cases are in the premier division,5,I am not an entreprenure but I dont drive a crap car and have a have decent house,you might want to appologise to the Hele village comunity on your slur about where they live,my point is I would like to see any of the board members,good loyal torquay supporters all,pitch the club in the Dragons den,I wonder how many would invest?.6,I agree there where no motorways in the last 100 years,again history,what you can not dipute is that we are a long way from the football world so every other week we set off on a very long journey to play an away match let alone tryingto attract players to the area.7,Who heard of Sky in the 50s or 60s,get real,on a cold ,wet,saturday or evening when there is football,rugby ect on the tele only the diehard supporters will come out ,look at yesterday,1800 fans!.8,Once again I bow to your factual knowledge but my point is how much longer will these clubs survive and if they do great, but I suspect its because where they live and they can attract players and their running costs are far less than ours.So in essance you have not countered any of my reasons and far from being insane i count my selve a realiste,if I where you I would get my head out of the sand or you might miss your tea.

I wouldn't worry. According to Matt, if it wasn't for bad luck, the bias of the BBC and referees applying the laws of the game and not letting us win when score less, we would be miles up the league.

[ROADRUNNER]

well weather you agree that we are in decline or not, its time to stand by your club, if we want them to survive we need to do our bit, we have been a lot worse than this, DAVE WEBB, CHRIS ROBERTS , ETC christ all clubs go through this and come out the other side as we will. it pains me as much as anyone else that things are not going well, but we have to support the club, players and manager that are in place at this time or any other time until the such time changes have to be made, thats football im afraid and thats why we are passionate about it.

[hector]

well weather you agree that we are in decline or not, its time to stand by your club, if we want them to survive we need to do our bit, we have been a lot worse than this, DAVE WEBB, CHRIS ROBERTS , ETC christ all clubs go through this and come out the other side as we will. it pains me as much as anyone else that things are not going well, but we have to support the club, players and manager that are in place at this time or any other time until the such time changes have to be made, thats football im afraid and thats why we are passionate about it.

If we all say just positive things, then the issues that are clear and obvious won't be dealt with. If the fanbase acts all supportive, then the club will rest on their laurels because a docile, gullible supporter-set nod in agreement that all is ok, as long as we stick together.

People need to make their feelings known, otherwise the club will do nothing and let this situation fester.

People suggest we have no option but to stick with Knill. If we cannot afford to sack him, then we are stuck with him, so support him, it is suggested. But how many fans will actually be left when his contract expires so we do not have to sack him? What division will we be in?

If, as seems increasingly likely, his days are numbered, why wait? Let's give ourselves a fighting chance because the one thing this team seem unable to do under Knill is fight. When a team is so tactically clueless and so inept ability wise, you hope, at least, they have a bit of spirit about them. This lot seem to lack it all. The manager does not do a very good impression of someone who will inspire players to run through brick walls for him. He does not do a good impression of someone able to impart a tactical strategy to his players.

The evidence for this? What we see every week of this sorry, pitiful season.

This board of directors sacked a manager for 'footballing reasons' when we all can speculate that, that probably wasn't the case at all.

The footballing reasons for persisting with Knill are becoming increasingly flimsy.

[ROADRUNNER]

thats fine hector, your opinion mate, im just saying what i think, im not saying weather he should be sacke d or not,i was merely stating that we as fans should try to stick with it and support the club, team players who are here at this time , and if and when that changes we will then support the new regime, am i being a gullible nodding supporter , NO! merely supporting the people who are here at present and until that changes i will carry on doing so as i always have, that doesnt mean i agree with managers or directors and have vented my anger at times and will always want what is best for this club. my opinion mate. NOT THE NODDING GULLIBLE SUPPORTER!!!

[ferrarilover]

Thanks Mat,knew I could count on you to respond to my posting,unfortunatly you have not convinced me that my thoughts and predictions are not correct.Sorry but forty seven years are forty seven years so it begins,1 Terminal decline as you say is death to torquay ,I did not mention terminal i say decline,no need to be over dramatic.I do not think Torquay will die,just decline into the conference area 2,Wonderfull facts(I take it they are correct,I do not have the time to recherch,I have a life),but unfortunatly these figures are all in the past,I am talking about the future.3,yep its true we have not been in the conference south,what I am saying is would we ever get out of the conference,last time we had a manager with a lot of conference knowledge and a budget that made us a BIG club in that division,would that happen again?4,Your ideas on lottery winners are truely bizzare,I must ask Dave Wheelan, Mr Abramavitch (sorry for the miss spelling) and the guy who owns the JacksonvilleJaguars who bought fulham let alone the arab owners of manchester city if one, they have a couple of bob more than our beloved chairperson and why they did not take the wonderfull opertunity of picking up Torquay United,perhaps its because all three clubs have massive potential ,in areas of great population,and in three cases are in the premier division,5,I am not an entreprenure but I dont drive a crap car and have a have decent house,you might want to appologise to the Hele village comunity on your slur about where they live,my point is I would like to see any of the board members,good loyal torquay supporters all,pitch the club in the Dragons den,I wonder how many would invest?.6,I agree there where no motorways in the last 100 years,again history,what you can not dipute is that we are a long way from the football world so every other week we set off on a very long journey to play an away match let alone tryingto attract players to the area.7,Who heard of Sky in the 50s or 60s,get real,on a cold ,wet,saturday or evening when there is football,rugby ect on the tele only the diehard supporters will come out ,look at yesterday,1800 fans!.8,Once again I bow to your factual knowledge but my point is how much longer will these clubs survive and if they do great, but I suspect its because where they live and they can attract players and their running costs are far less than ours.So in essance you have not countered any of my reasons and far from being insane i count my selve a realiste,if I where you I would get my head out of the sand or you might miss your tea.

I'll do my best to deal with this.

Terminal decline: To find ourselves in the Conference South would represent the end of Torquay United as we know it and as it exists today. All jokes aside, a team of plumbers and butchers training twice a week and sharing a pitch with Ipplepen FC in front of two dozen fans would not, in any way, be related to today's club. The TUFC we know (and you, as you are at pains to point out, have followed for 47 years) and love would cease to exist.

No need to be over dramatic: Sorry about the noise, it was my irony meter being overloaded.

You have a life: Again, in the face of a post which took you 10 times as long to write as it did for me to Google that information, my irony meter is in serious danger of being overloaded.

These figures are in the past, you're on about the future: Upon what are you basing your predictions of the future if not the occurrences of the past? Unless you're possessed of a crystal ball which is much better than mine, you have only the past upon which to make judgements about what is yet to come. (Just in case, what are next week's lottery numbers?)

What you're saying is "would we ever get out of the Conference": What, pray tell, did you mean when you said "I think our true place will be in the conference south"

Would that happen again: I don't know, you're the one with the crystal ball, you tell me.

Lottery winners etc: You say I'm bizarre, then you ask why Abramovich chose to buy Chelsea rather than Torquay United. My head hurts. The point I made, quite obviously, was that you seem to be suggesting that being owned by a very wealthy woman is a reason for your belief that we will soon enough find ourselves in the Conference South. I may not have given you sufficient credit for posting in your second language.

Cars etc: No, nor I and we have he same circumstances regarding motors and houses. Thing is, our Directors must be doing something right. They're businessmen, senior professionals and not men who struggle to pay the gas bill. They aren't salaried workers, they aren't men who simply work 9-5 for their money, they are self made and they have managed to fight off sufficient competition to drop a hundred grand on motors and a cool half million on homes. Of course, it's not a strong argument, but I really haven't the will to go through all their relative achievements. Take it from me, they know what they're doing.
People in Hele can suck my cock, for all I care. Their village is a hovel. It should be walled in and left to rot. Torquay is a shithole, and Hele is the worst part of the whole town.

Dragons Den: I've not seen it, but I believe the idea is that a bunch of rich people invest in the best ideas. No, of course they'd reject it, it's madness, but then, that's not really relevant to anything, is it.

Motorways: Why don't you understand this? We've ALWAYS been miles from civilisation. This isn't America, we haven't relocated the franchise here from central London. We've always been this far from other places and we've never been a Conference South club. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that this will suddenly become such a significant problem as to render us liable to a two division drop. It didn't seem to hamper Plymouth on their run (and long stint) in the Championship.

Sky TV: A problem no doubt. Champions League and other midweek football is definitely a problem, but there isn't any football on TV at 1500 on a Saturday. As far as I know, it's unlawful to broadcast a Saturday afternoon game (not sure where the legislation is to be found, but I heard it a few years ago and it would seem likely to be true). The crowd yesterday was as low as it was because it was a very boring FA Cup game. No one cares about the FA Cup anymore and fewer people still give a toss about seeing us play Rochdale again. Crowds were down everywhere yesterday, don't read anything sinister into it.

Other teams: Again, you're the clairvoyant, you tell me how long these teams will last. We can speculate all we like, but all we know for sure is that, at present and for the last few years at least, these clubs have managed to do alright without attracting crowds even as large as ours. It must be possible. Not so long ago, Accrington made the Playoffs while attracting about 1200/week. Our crowds are not so small that they alone will see us relegated. This may or may not have something to do with the business acumen of the Board and their refusal to allow us to live beyond our means. How do you imagine our running costs are particularly high? We pay very little, we don't have anything to pay which other teams do not. We aren't spending silly money on legal fees fighting Judicial Review regarding our new ground (as per Bristol Rovers). We don't spend silly money fighting winding up orders every 5 minutes (as per Southend). We probably spend less than almost every other club in the division.

What I have done is present facts to counter your opinions (and reasoned opinion, in the absence of fact). Facts which you don't happen to agree with. I've more than countered your ramblings. That you do not accept my reasoning does not alter the truth of it. You carry on believing that we will, before long, crumble and die. Come back to me in 5 years when we're still (surprise surprise) sat where we always are, somewhere towards the bottom of L2.

Matt.

[ROADRUNNER]

I'll do my best to deal with this.

Terminal decline: To find ourselves in the Conference South would represent the end of Torquay United as we know it and as it exists today. All jokes aside, a team of plumbers and butchers training twice a week and sharing a pitch with Ipplepen FC in front of two dozen fans would not, in any way, be related to today's club. The TUFC we know (and you, as you are at pains to point out, have followed for 47 years) and love would cease to exist.

No need to be over dramatic: Sorry about the noise, it was my irony meter being overloaded.

You have a life: Again, in the face of a post which took you 10 times as long to write as it did for me to Google that information, my irony meter is in serious danger of being overloaded.

These figures are in the past, you're on about the future: Upon what are you basing your predictions of the future if not the occurrences of the past? Unless you're possessed of a crystal ball which is much better than mine, you have only the past upon which to make judgements about what is yet to come. (Just in case, what are next week's lottery numbers?)

What you're saying is "would we ever get out of the Conference": What, pray tell, did you mean when you said "I think our true place will be in the conference south"

Would that happen again: I don't know, you're the one with the crystal ball, you tell me.

Lottery winners etc: You say I'm bizarre, then you ask why Abramovich chose to buy Chelsea rather than Torquay United. My head hurts. The point I made, quite obviously, was that you seem to be suggesting that being owned by a very wealthy woman is a reason for your belief that we will soon enough find ourselves in the Conference South. I may not have given you sufficient credit for posting in your second language.

Cars etc: No, nor I and we have he same circumstances regarding motors and houses. Thing is, our Directors must be doing something right. They're businessmen, senior professionals and not men who struggle to pay the gas bill. They aren't salaried workers, they aren't men who simply work 9-5 for their money, they are self made and they have managed to fight off sufficient competition to drop a hundred grand on motors and a cool half million on homes. Of course, it's not a strong argument, but I really haven't the will to go through all their relative achievements. Take it from me, they know what they're doing.
People in Hele can suck my cock, for all I care. Their village is a hovel. It should be walled in and left to rot. Torquay is a shithole, and Hele is the worst part of the whole town.

Dragons Den: I've not seen it, but I believe the idea is that a bunch of rich people invest in the best ideas. No, of course they'd reject it, it's madness, but then, that's not really relevant to anything, is it.

Motorways: Why don't you understand this? We've ALWAYS been miles from civilisation. This isn't America, we haven't relocated the franchise here from central London. We've always been this far from other places and we've never been a Conference South club. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that this will suddenly become such a significant problem as to render us liable to a two division drop. It didn't seem to hamper Plymouth on their run (and long stint) in the Championship.

Sky TV: A problem no doubt. Champions League and other midweek football is definitely a problem, but there isn't any football on TV at 1500 on a Saturday. As far as I know, it's unlawful to broadcast a Saturday afternoon game (not sure where the legislation is to be found, but I heard it a few years ago and it would seem likely to be true). The crowd yesterday was as low as it was because it was a very boring FA Cup game. No one cares about the FA Cup anymore and fewer people still give a toss about seeing us play Rochdale again. Crowds were down everywhere yesterday, don't read anything sinister into it.

Other teams: Again, you're the clairvoyant, you tell me how long these teams will last. We can speculate all we like, but all we know for sure is that, at present and for the last few years at least, these clubs have managed to do alright without attracting crowds even as large as ours. It must be possible. Not so long ago, Accrington made the Playoffs while attracting about 1200/week. Our crowds are not so small that they alone will see us relegated. This may or may not have something to do with the business acumen of the Board and their refusal to allow us to live beyond our means. How do you imagine our running costs are particularly high? We pay very little, we don't have anything to pay which other teams do not. We aren't spending silly money on legal fees fighting Judicial Review regarding our new ground (as per Bristol Rovers). We don't spend silly money fighting winding up orders every 5 minutes (as per Southend). We probably spend less than almost every other club in the division.

What I have done is present facts to counter your opinions (and reasoned opinion, in the absence of fact). Facts which you don't happen to agree with. I've more than countered your ramblings. That you do not accept my reasoning does not alter the truth of it. You carry on believing that we will, before long, crumble and die. Come back to me in 5 years when we're still (surprise surprise) sat where we always are, somewhere towards the bottom of L2.

Matt.

[tomogull]

Gawd - we've got a Positive Thread going ...... this one should be re-headed The Negative Thread. I will say this, though ..... after yet another abject inept display yesterday, it's no wonder some/most on here are feeling depressed and disillusioned. Myself, I don't put too much blame on the players - it's down to Alan Knill/Chris Brass and the system or, more likely, lack of system they seem to be trying to play.

[Neal]

It well maybe the start of a major decline who knows. My view is that many of the current squad lack basic league 2 football skills. I've noticed quite a few posts stating that we have a good set of players, what this is based on I can't work out. Its not the players fault if they are not good enough, but it is if they don't put in the required effort.

Personally Ive lost faith in Knill , I just can't have blind faith, it must be based on some evidence. And I've seen none! I do think even with a poor set of players you can organise them enough to easily stay in league 2, but you need 100% commitment, fight, pulling together, and you must never ever give up. You also need character and work extremely hard. We do have some players I would trust for the above, Downes, Rice, Benyon, but not enough in my opinion, and that's why we will struggle.

[brucie]

Well after a three hour round trip to watch that load of garbage I won't be going to the Chesterfield/Plymouth matches. I might as well chuck £60 down the drain each time.
As neal says we have a few good players but nowhere near enough of them. Add to that a manager who is completely tactically inept and who seemed to think that nearly getting a draw in a home fa cup tie would have been an acceptable then we have no hope.

[frenchgull]

Hi Matt,Well you have certainly gone up a gear in your make believe Italian car with your reply to my response and in some answers i m o making no sense at all,somewhere you might have had some legal experience ,you certainly have mastered the gobbledegook using a dozen words where three would do, so lets begin;-
1,If we find ourselves in the conference south it would not be the end of Torquay United,if you think that we would attract, twelve people I think thats ridiculous,there would be enough people to support Torquay at this level,if there is the odd butcher or plumber playing at least he would be from Torbay and playing for Torquay because its his local team and loves the club,
2Irony, first gobblebegook plus you have no idea how long I took to reply to your misif,you are again talking rubbish,you are assuming that I took ten times longer that it took you to find out all the old historic facts that where irrelevant to this discussion,first signs of getting rattled?.Oh by the way I have a life.
3,I make my judgement not on the past but over the last ten years where the elite have got stronger and the poor just hanging on,if you had any foresight you would see that it is not getting any better,clubs will go ,Blockbusters are now no more,a great idea at the time to rent films,now you can download from the internet,you see time moves on,sorry do not know the next lottery numbers,if you are still doing the lottery perhaps you are not the entrepreneur you think you are.
4,the problem with our benefactor is ,in your eyes she is very wealthy,in football terms she is ,how can it put this,she is not. Yes she has a great deal of money but dose she want to put any more in to the club,please don't answer this because you don't know,but if money was not a problem why are we worrying about sacking a manager!!.Sorry don't understand your second language comment.
5,I have no quarels with the good people of the Torquay board,time and effort they put in,your ramblings are hardly worth the read .Now not only have you been very desparaging to Hele Village now you think Torquay is not a very nice place to live,unbelievable!Now you insult all the good poeple who live in this great town ,born and bread plus people who choose to come down to Devon to work and retire,great posting Matt,dont go into politics.
6 Dragons den is relevant,Torquay United is a business,we we are asking for people to invest in the club ,we need to sell the club/business,can our board do this or is it like pushing soot uphill.
7Communication is so vital in todays world,Torquay, has as you say,has always been in south devon but then the radio came then the television came then the internet came and god knows what will come next,we are at the end of a very long road ,isolated,it an'it conduciv to league football,As regards to Plymouth I went as a kid to see the likes of Sunderland at Plymouth along with twenty thousand odd other people,so you see times have changed.
8There might not be football at three pm on the television but the game before stops at half past two,so not a lot of time to get to Plainmoor,plus you forget rugby is a strong sport in Devon,I am affraid that Sky/tv is a big factor in the attendance at Plainmoor.
9 Other teams you say have done ok in the PAST,lets see how the do in the FUTURE.I salute the board in not letting our club get into financial difficulties,once again your responce takes a whole paragraph all on irrelevent subjucts .
10Countered my ramblings,I dont think so,waffle,past facts and a whole lot of words that mean nothing.
I do accept that like me you have the interests of Torquay United at heart,we just come from differents standpoints.Glad that you managed to contain yourself to just the one expletive.

[ferrarilover]

I really don't think I need to bother with this. Just one random example of why not...

I make my judgement not on the past but over the last ten years

Matt.

[stefano]

I really don't think I need to bother with this. Just one random example of why not...
Matt.

Don't forget Doc Emmett Brown and Marty McFly!

[Dutchgull]

I think that the quote from David Keyte is so true

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24898507

People do not have that allegiance to their local team anymore.

People cant be bothered to go to watch the likes of Torquay. Its far easier to sit on your ass all day and watch football from all around the world. Why go out in the cold and rain when you can watch Barcelona from the comfort of your armchair ?

I am sorry Matt but this is the reality for small clubs such as us. With BT paying huge amounts for the Champions league the big will get even bigger and the rest will die a slow death.

[ferrarilover]

The PL has been around for 20 years, it hasn't killed us yet. True, it'll make it extremely hard for us to progress to the upper reaches of the game, but it won't actually kill clubs like ours.

You're right that the BT deal will lead to the already big PL becoming even bigger. Hopefully it will soon reach critical mass. The point where Sky can hold the clubs to ransom. Either that or the point where people simply stop buying Sky Sports because it's £100/month, all so Wayne Rooney can earn £1,000,000/week.

Then the PL will die and all that will be left for Sky to do to attempt to salvage its credibly and customer base is to beg the FL to allow them to show its games.

Matt.

[hector]

I think that the quote from David Keyte is so true

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24898507

People do not have that allegiance to their local team anymore.

People cant be bothered to go to watch the likes of Torquay. Its far easier to sit on your ass all day and watch football from all around the world. Why go out in the cold and rain when you can watch Barcelona from the comfort of your armchair ?

I am sorry Matt but this is the reality for small clubs such as us. With BT paying huge amounts for the Champions league the big will get even bigger and the rest will die a slow death.

That article demonstrates why it is crucial we do not get relegated because if we do, we will likely go the same way as Hereford.

The money needed to pay off an inept Knill will seem like chicken-feed in comparison to the income lost and devastation relegation back to the Conference would bring. But hey, let's wait until it is just about too late before we do anything.