Is Hargreaves fit for purpose?

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Post by chunkygull »

wodger of awabia wrote: Yes, keep the youngsters, dump the dead wood, and even sign a few part timers that are interested in winning games, playing football & securing a full time contract for themselves. IMVHO.


Absolutely agree with this! This is something I have thought about for quite some time. Hopefully there would never be a need for the club to go part time, but I see no reason as to why we cant use part time/semi-pro players to fill some squad places as opposed to having quite a few so-called full time professionals on a hefty wedge of money, not giving good value, not pulling their weight, not breaking into the first team and being a drain on the club.

Many who feel they are in the know have commented on club finances, how much some of our players earn, how much on average professional footballers in league 2/conference earn or what the going rate is. The club needs to save money and the standard some of the so-called professional footballers we have attracted in recent times has been poor. Are all the available full time pros out there absolutely that much better than some part time players. Weighing up the financial implications having passengers in the squad or paying somebody less for doing the same thing its surely a move worth looking at. Would it really be a big difference in quality or the teams chances to have a part time player who is on a less money coming off the bench during a game, giving it their all for the last twenty minutes or do we keep on a dis-interested so-called pro who you might get a performance out of and he gets hundreds of pounds more a week for doing pretty much the same thing. Most footballers only work part time hours anyway dont they.

Personally there have been many players at this club down the years who come on lets face it havent really been good enough to be called pro footballers and should be done under the trade description act. So many you look at and think how on earth are they a pro. There must be some semi-pro players out there I suspect who are probably better than some of the crap we have had in recent times.

Watching some early round FA cup games this year of league 2 clubs vs part time clubs, to be honest there wasnt much in it, granted a lot of part time players were probably playing out of their skin but there are a few rough diamonds in there that being attached to a full time pro club would enhance their talent and they would at least be good enough squad players. In the games I saw there wasnt really much in it when it came to skill or technique it is only really near the end of these types of matches that the real tell is the fitness levels, this is where the difference between semi and full shows, thats all. So, would a player coming off the bench for 15-20 minutes at a fraction of the cost and doing the same job be so bad?

Some points have been made on here in recent past that some very decent players dont become full time pros because they can earn more working a normal job and playing part time, why dont we use players like this? Some have also stated that the difference in quality of football or footballers from conference to the next few leagues down which are often part timers isnt that big, so why not use a few of these part-timers in our squad to save some money and help us live within our means and cut our cloth accordingly. Is it really too much of a gamble, would it really be that bad, is it just football snobbery not to try it?

With the ridiculous money that even conference and league 2 footballers earn now and yes I have read on here what the going rate is (outrageous) and some of ours are supposedly on what is considered peanuts in comparison (still too bloody much), but if it puts the club in financial straits it just isnt worth it and I would rather TUFC didnt pay that sort of money and tried something else. It has to change, somethings got to give and I cant see why we cant at least look at a couple of part timers as an option. When you look at the amount of money we have chucked down the drain on players who have barely given part time service even when fit it must be worth considering.
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Post by hector »

Sesimbra wrote:How can it possibly be said that Hargreaves is blameless concerning the Clubs present position. He is the manager, picks the team, dictates the formations and is responsible for the discipline of the players 75% of the team are his players.
It is continually being said that he has no funds to play with. Probably true but this applies to most Conference Clubs with one or two exceptions.
Kidderminster is the latest to have cash problems.
FACT Knill kept Torquay in League 2. Hargreaves failed to do so and has also failed to have an impact on the Conference this season with the team at the lowest point in the Club's history.
It depends on how you view the 'fact'.

1) Torquay, with Martin Ling's team, were not relegated - even with Alan Knill in charge.

2) Torquay, with Alan Knill's team, were relegated.

Regarding 'fact' 1, Alan Knill hardly 'kept us up'. We were just 'less bad' than Aldershot and Barnet. He was fortunate he had Martin Ling's players, which leads me to 'fact' 2, in the team that he expensively assembled, that was so abysmal he lost his job, was relegated.

Some would blame Hargreaves for that, and whilst he didn't exactly cover himself in glory with that side, he earned more points, more wins, more points per game and more wins per games, than Alan Knill managed to do with the team he built and asked everyone to give him 10 games to settle in. He got more than double that and they were still awful.
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Post by brucie »

Hargreaves is clueless - lets be completely honest about it. He failed to keep us up last year. Was supposed to be getting us promoted but has failed miserably. We are going to end up with our lowest ever league position. Finishing is the bottom half of this league is an absolute disgrace.
We fluked getting to the semi finals of the Fa Trophy because we drew a succession of park sides.
Lets face it we were lucky to beat FC United. Whilst they had good support they were bloody awful. Our performances in both legs of the semi final were a disgrace. Wrexham were bog average as well - how did they get on in their last game?
Beaten 3-0 says it all really.
We have been beaten by a whole succession of part time rubbish this season and our form has been dismal for five months - Hargreaves has managed to assemble the WORST side we have ever had. The team is even worse than the one when Chris Roberts was here.
All this with the fifth best supported team in the league - what a complete joke.
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Post by Southampton Gull »

hector wrote:
It depends on how you view the 'fact'.

1) Torquay, with Martin Ling's team, were not relegated - even with Alan Knill in charge.

2) Torquay, with Alan Knill's team, were relegated.

Regarding 'fact' 1, Alan Knill hardly 'kept us up'. We were just 'less bad' than Aldershot and Barnet. He was fortunate he had Martin Ling's players, which leads me to 'fact' 2, in the team that he expensively assembled, that was so abysmal he lost his job, was relegated.

Some would blame Hargreaves for that, and whilst he didn't exactly cover himself in glory with that side, he earned more points, more wins, more points per game and more wins per games, than Alan Knill managed to do with the team he built and asked everyone to give him 10 games to settle in. He got more than double that and they were still awful.
I'm pretty sure nobody could have with that side, it was awful to watch.

Brucie, as usual, glosses over the key issues to present his evidence :red:
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Post by SBP »

Im not sure if anybody else is getting as annoyed as me about this but is it only me that notices that some of our players are looking a bit heavy.
Much has been said before about Briscoe. Yoeman and Rice look a bit heavy. I post this because i had a conversation about Young with an ex pro yesterday who thought that he also looked a bit heavy.
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Post by tomogull »

SBP wrote:Im not sure if anybody else is getting as annoyed as me about this but is it only me that notices that some of our players are looking a bit heavy.
Much has been said before about Briscoe. Yoeman and Rice look a bit heavy. I post this because i had a conversation about Young with an ex pro yesterday who thought that he also looked a bit heavy.
Can't say that I've noticed any of the players being overweight other than Briscoe who looks to be carrying extra pounds but is probably just big built. What I will say is that the Wrexham players ran us ragged in the second half even though most of them had played a hard midweek match against Forest Green. Over the season, we have dropped many points in the last 15 minutes of matches. It does make you question the fitness of some of our players ......
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Post by SBP »

I was lucky enough to have a tour around Exeter Chiefs(Sandy Park) facilities the other Saturday by one of their injured players. I knew that Exeter had come along way but their approach to a players training programme, weight and diet was excellent. If a player missed a time slot with the physio or similar he has to report to the Head Coach! There is no way that a player would take to the field unless he was 100% match fit. In fact they told me that they dreaded being injured as the rehabilitation is extremely hard, injured players in at 7am and finishing at around 3.30pm.

I just wonder how fit some of our players really are because looking at some of them and seeing them fade off in games makes me wonder
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Post by gullintwoplaces »

hector wrote: It depends on how you view the 'fact'.

1) Torquay, with Martin Ling's team, were not relegated - even with Alan Knill in charge.

2) Torquay, with Alan Knill's team, were relegated.

Regarding 'fact' 1, Alan Knill hardly 'kept us up'. We were just 'less bad' than Aldershot and Barnet. He was fortunate he had Martin Ling's players, which leads me to 'fact' 2, in the team that he expensively assembled, that was so abysmal he lost his job, was relegated.

Some would blame Hargreaves for that, and whilst he didn't exactly cover himself in glory with that side, he earned more points, more wins, more points per game and more wins per games, than Alan Knill managed to do with the team he built and asked everyone to give him 10 games to settle in. He got more than double that and they were still awful.
Completely agree with all that Hector. Your comment shines in comparison to the ludicrous vitriol from the usual suspect in the comment below yours.
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Post by stefano »

The answer to the Thread Title seems quite simple as it is answered by the thread.

If he was .... there would not be 19 pages of debate about it! ;-)
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Post by Sesimbra »

SG - Your goodself said or inferred that Hargreaves was blameless. Quote 'There are a lot of things wrong at our club and none of them are the fault of Chris Hargreaves' . Therefore he is faultless in your opinion which is the same as blameless (Oxford dictionary).
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Post by Dave »

Totally agree Stefano, this thread was originated on the 16th October last year, the very fact that on the 5th March, we're going around in circles with the same people rolling the same argument and counter argument should tell everyone who reads this site all they need to know, that suggests to me that no matter what side of the fence we sit on, we're all starting to form the same opinion that, this season is doomed to end in abject failure, some are just more determined to put up a stout defence of CH than others.

I seem to remember the majority of us didn't expect promotion season one, myself included, but the majority of us did expect a top eight finish and at least in the play-off mix, it is my opinion that our team has not just dropped 10-12 points, but actually thrown those points in the bin, add those on and we're right up there with games in hand.

We can all go on about CH having is hands tied and financial restrictions, and to an extent agreed he has. But then take the budget CH has actually had to work with and compare it to the rest of this league, I would be shocked if our budget was not TOP FIVE , in fact it is now known that our player budget for this season was bigger than Cheltenham's ( those with personal connections with Paul Buckle could vouch for that ) and maybe a few other League 2 clubs, CH's budget dwarfs that of a number of clubs 10 points higher than us in the conference.

We need a very strong finish to this season, and I can not and will not except any one coming the forum should we finish in the lower half of the conference, telling us that was the expectation so what's the problem, that sort final finish will not be acceptable in any stretch of the imagination, and CH will have to take his share of the blame.
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Post by Southampton Gull »

Sesimbra wrote:SG - Your goodself said or inferred that Hargreaves was blameless. Quote 'There are a lot of things wrong at our club and none of them are the fault of Chris Hargreaves' . Therefore he is faultless in your opinion which is the same as blameless (Oxford dictionary).
To be fair that's taken out of context in so far as I was referring to matters away from the playing side. I did say not far back on this thread that he'd made mistakes but hands up you got me Guv ;-)
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Post by SBP »

Not sure if this is a joke but just had a text from a friend saying no wonder TUFC are shite Ive just seen Bowman, Downes and Benyon on the TV at the premier league darts with beers in their hands!!
Did anybody else see it??
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Post by Alpine Joe »

forevertufc
But then take the budget CH has actually had to work with and compare it to the rest of this league, I would be shocked if our budget was not TOP FIVE
A lot of this seasons budget was allocated by Alan Knill. The generous contracts he gave to Benyon, Tonge and Pearce for example are so lucrative that wild horses couldn't drag away to another club if it meant giving up their current pay packets. The actual cash left over that Hargreaves could actually 'work with' as you put it was very little, hence he's recruiting players who will turn out for expenses.

A lot of this seasons budget was already allocated to the pockets of Alan Knill's signings; they either receive it as wages or in a lump sum as encouragement to leave. It's not CH working with it if it's AK who decided which players it had to be spent on.
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Post by Dave »

Alpine Joe wrote:forevertufc A lot of this seasons budget was allocated by Alan Knill. The generous contracts he gave to Benyon, Tonge and Pearce for example are so lucrative that wild horses couldn't drag away to another club if it meant giving up their current pay packets. The actual cash left over that Hargreaves could actually 'work with' as you put it was very little, hence he's recruiting players who will turn out for expenses.

A lot of this seasons budget was already allocated to the pockets of Alan Knill's signings; they either receive it as wages or in a lump sum as encouragement to leave. It's not CH working with it if it's AK who decided which players it had to be spent on.
Yes AJ you are of course right to point that out to me, it's something that I had considered, it's widely believed that only two of Alan Knill's signings were on big money, it's believed the rest were on nothing more than the average going rate including Benyon. Even taking out the percentage of the budget for those players on inflated wages I reckon CH would still have been working of a budget up there as one of the biggest in the conference.

I look at the part-time clubs riding high above us in the division, who would loved to have had our budget minus the high earners, were currently rubbing shoulders with Altrincham and Braintree in the division, Braintree a prime example, they're believed to have one of the smallest budgets in the conference, rumoured to be around £250k a year.

The player budget at TUFC next term is likely to be slashed, my question to all is; would you rather have Chris Hargreaves or Alan Devonshire in charge of next season squad and budget ?
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