Is Hargreaves fit for purpose?

Neal · Post by **Neal** » 01 Mar 2015, 12:57

Tamargull wrote:Time for CH to go?- what exactly has he achieved since becoming manager? Can accept that someone can get his tactics wrong but not being able to motivate a team for a semi-final is very, very worrying.

Yep the most worrying thing he couldn't motivate a set of players who could have played at Wembley this season. The ONE chance many of this lot will have in their careers. Its not good is it?

tomogull · Post by **tomogull** » 01 Mar 2015, 20:04

Good posting, Hector. The other question is - what exactly does Lee Hodges bring to this team ? Maybe replace him with a player-coach who would bring experience to the side might be an option ? Personally, I think it's too much of a luxury for a team in our position to have a manager and a non-playing assistant manager/coach.

Post by **SuperNickyWroe** » 01 Mar 2015, 20:07

tomogull wrote:Good posting, Hector. The other question is - what exactly does Lee Hodges bring to this team ? Maybe replace him with a player-coach who would bring experience to the side might be an option ? Personally, I think it's too much of a luxury for a team in our position to have a manager and a non-playing assistant manager/coach.

Some might say it's to much of a luxury to have this manager.

tomogull · Post by **tomogull** » 01 Mar 2015, 20:12

SuperNickyWroe wrote: Some might say it's to much of a luxury to have this manager.

Yep - and after yesterday's shambles, I wouldn't disagree with them because I put the blame on Hargreaves and Hodges more than on the players. I didn't agree with your view six months ago but I'm now rapidly coming around to your way of thinking.

Post by **SuperNickyWroe** » 01 Mar 2015, 22:27

tomogull wrote: Yep - and after yesterday's shambles, I wouldn't disagree with them because I put the blame on Hargreaves and Hodges more than on the players. I didn't agree with your view six months ago but I'm now rapidly coming around to your way of thinking.

I'm sure you won't be the last Tomogull.

arcadia · Post by **arcadia** » 01 Mar 2015, 22:45

ethantufcbaker wrote:http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=68ty2

although the team selected yesterday wasnt that bad it is clear that young struggles in a midfield two i think richards and macdoanld would be good defensively and allow young to attack

The team selection was shocking I can't agree with you!

arcadia · Post by **arcadia** » 01 Mar 2015, 23:01

Don't run down non-league managers, some of them have more knowledge than those in the league, what they don't have is the contacts and that's where an older experienced director of football person could be employed.
If the club are going to get rid of Hargreaves it would be better now than at the end of the season as it buys time giving the new manager a chance to hang on to what he wants for next season. Lets face it this season is over!

I think this is going to be a difficult time for everyone at the club after Saturdays fiasco I wish that I could forget it.

royalgull · Post by **royalgull** » 02 Mar 2015, 11:38

hector wrote:I feel fairly ambivalent about the managerial situation. If the club decided to wield the axe again, or CH resigned, I'm not sure that I would be unduly upset. However, a part of me would be disappointed and sad that it hasn't worked because I do like Hargreaves and feel that, as an intelligent man, who had been coaching successfully, he had the attributes that good managers need.

Someone, stood near me yesterday, shouted that CH was the club's worst ever manager. Now anyone with half a braincell knows that there are plenty of other former managers who could lay claim to that (dis)honour, not least Hargreaves's predecessor. Our history is littered with crap managers: Bob John, Jack Edwards, Musgrove, Impey, Compton, May, Saunders, Cornforth, Kubik, Knill for a start.

However, say the club succumb to the wishes of some fans (and I don't think the anti-Hargreaves faction is anywhere as big as the anti-Knill one was a year or so ago, although it will probably gain, quite rapidly, new members if things don't improve quickly) but say the club sack Hargreaves - therefore paying him off and reducing the budget even further - who are we going to get? We are not a stable Football League club anymore; we are a struggling non-league club, just what sort of calibre of manager would we attract? A manager like Steve Burr has a job, at a club, probably as big as us and doing better.

Our directors would not have the gumption to scout around for managers doing well at say a Conference South/North club. They probably would not be able to think beyond Junction 27 of the M5 and someone like Sean Joyce, Kevin Hill or Steve Tully would be the type of manager we would end up with. Even someone like Paul Sturrock, ideal in League 2, would probably come unstuck, with a pitiful budget, in this pitiful league and would last as long as took to get relegated to the Conference South. Or we might end up with some Conference serial failure like Martin Foyle.

So, the options are all fairly horrendous. We stick with what we have got, and hope that once the mercenaries signed by Alan Knill depart, Hargreaves has enough room to manoeuvre and recruit players who can propel us upwards, or perhaps watch as he fails to halt the downward trajectory this club has been on for 3 years, or we recruit someone else, who probably will be even worse and have even less money to work with.

The one manager, who is available (as far as I know) and has a proven record of success at this level is Paul Cox - ex-Mansfield. His record at Eastwood Town and then Mansfield Town, especially in the non-league is really rather impressive. If I was a director and I had reservations about Hargreaves, he would be the first man I would be making a phonecall to.

Excellent post hector agree with all of that.

royalgull · Post by **royalgull** » 02 Mar 2015, 11:49

I haven't seen him work but from how well he was thought of at a club like Bournemouth who play football the 'right way' would suggest to me he knows what he's doing on a coaching pitch and how to work with younger players, I know Hargreaves had a long playing career with lots of stops but i think he genuinely feels for this club and I think this run or this season really is hurting him a lot more than the players but also more than he can let on.

As much as I think he wants to he can't batter these players, this is what he's got for the remainder of the season so he has to try and keep them onside otherwise it's his job that will go not theirs. That's the cusp of the managers role isn't it, his job is in the hands of these losers! Ouch. If any of them had 10% of Hargreaves mindset we'd be doing a bit better but they don't and you can't instil self respect. It's either there or it's not.

As for motivation i don't buy it really, i've played football (to a poor-ok standard) for 20 years and i've never needed a manager to get me 'motivated' before a game, it's in your make-up your own self respect to want to go out and play well, I expect it's in our players to I don't believe they go out there not wanting to win or not wanting to try but they are so mentally fragile and plain not good enough that it just doesn't happen for them and they don't know how to react to things not going well, a manager can help slightly but you are only as good as your tools in this game. Mourinho couldn't coach this lot into winners.

Buckle had more budget leeway than Hargreaves and he didn't inherit so many 'senior pros' on hefty wages for the level but the first players we got were the likes of Todd, Hargreaves, Phillips, Sills, we sorted the spine of our team out with proven Conference players that would give everything for you and coupled with lads like Steve Woods, Mansell, Robertson and Nicholson there was a reliance about that squad you knew what you'd get from them week in week out, we just don't have any players at all that we can rely on to give us a performance and our senior pros are proven failures.

Gullscorer · Post by **Gullscorer** » 02 Mar 2015, 12:03

royalgull wrote:I haven't seen him work but from how well he was thought of at a club like Bournemouth who play football the 'right way' would suggest to me he knows what he's doing on a coaching pitch and how to work with younger players, I know Hargreaves had a long playing career with lots of stops but i think he genuinely feels for this club and I think this run or this season really is hurting him a lot more than the players but also more than he can let on.

As much as I think he wants to he can't batter these players, this is what he's got for the remainder of the season so he has to try and keep them onside otherwise it's his job that will go not theirs. That's the cusp of the managers role isn't it, his job is in the hands of these losers! Ouch. If any of them had 10% of Hargreaves mindset we'd be doing a bit better but they don't and you can't instil self respect. It's either there or it's not.

As for motivation i don't buy it really, i've played football (to a poor-ok standard) for 20 years and i've never needed a manager to get me 'motivated' before a game, it's in your make-up your own self respect to want to go out and play well, I expect it's in our players to I don't believe they go out there not wanting to win or not wanting to try but they are so mentally fragile and plain not good enough that it just doesn't happen for them and they don't know how to react to things not going well, a manager can help slightly but you are only as good as your tools in this game. Mourinho couldn't coach this lot into winners.

Buckle had more budget leeway than Hargreaves and he didn't inherit so many 'senior pros' on hefty wages for the level but the first players we got were the likes of Todd, Hargreaves, Phillips, Sills, we sorted the spine of our team out with proven Conference players that would give everything for you and coupled with lads like Steve Woods, Mansell, Robertson and Nicholson there was a reliance about that squad you knew what you'd get from them week in week out, we just don't have any players at all that we can rely on to give us a performance and our senior pros are proven failures.

Gloomy Gull · Post by **Gloomy Gull** » 02 Mar 2015, 13:14

Gullscorer wrote:

I have to wonder if CH did well at Bournemouth because he had the "safety net" of a well developed management infrastructure that he could call on for advice and experience? It cannot be disputed that Eddie Howe has done/is doing a great job and is probably a great mentor.

At Torquay, CH has no support and his inexperience/lack of skill is thrust into the limelight.

What I am struggling to understand is how a team of generally young, raw, inexperienced players who played with confidence, enthusiasm and importantly as A TEAM in the first few months of the season, have become this gaggle of individuals with low confidence, no obvious enthusiasm and, for a lot of the time, play as if they have only just met. I would have expected the team to improve as the season progressed and as they developed through the team forming stage and became more familiar with each others game.

The stand out for me is Luke Young, beginning of the season, all over the midfield, picking great passes, shooting from distance and scoring good goals, plenty of assists.........where has he gone??

If CH "knows what he is doing on a coaching pitch and how to work with young players" WHY oh WHY have our young players become increasingly poor? Some of the adverse behaviour must be evident on the Coaching Pitch.... surely,....... or am I expecting too much from CH and he really has just not got the skills he has been attributed with by many on this forum and is actually a mediocre (at best) manager/coach.

royalgull · Post by **royalgull** » 02 Mar 2015, 13:16

because young lads naturally will have dips in form and confidence and you need your experienced senior pros to carry them through and step up to the plate, the ones we have simply haven't done that at all.

Gloomy Gull · Post by **Gloomy Gull** » 02 Mar 2015, 13:18

This is more than a "dip", it is more like a gaping chasm!!

royalgull · Post by **royalgull** » 02 Mar 2015, 13:23

Accept that but that's what happens when the key positions are filled by young lads with little to no experience in a team that has lost confidence. Courtney Richards is a good example, I think there's a player there and he started well but he shouldn't have been in the side for the last 2 months. Needed to be taken out, rested and brought back in but the alternative of Harding is so much worse and he's costing us a fortune! He should have been a leader we could rely on this season and last but has been bobbins when he's played. MacDonald also, but Downes is so consistently crap or stupid he costs us goals all the time or gets himself sent off when we're in games. It's those guys that have let this club down continuously.

kevgull · Post by **kevgull** » 02 Mar 2015, 13:25

Gloomy Gull wrote:
I have to wonder if CH did well at Bournemouth because he had the "safety net" of a well developed management infrastructure that he could call on for advice and experience? It cannot be disputed that Eddie Howe has done/is doing a great job and is probably a great mentor.

At Torquay, CH has no support and his inexperience/lack of skill is thrust into the limelight.

What I am struggling to understand is how a team of generally young, raw, inexperienced players who played with confidence, enthusiasm and importantly as A TEAM in the first few months of the season, have become this gaggle of individuals with low confidence, no obvious enthusiasm and, for a lot of the time, play as if they have only just met. I would have expected the team to improve as the season progressed and as they developed through the team forming stage and became more familiar with each others game.

The stand out for me is Luke Young, beginning of the season, all over the midfield, picking great passes, shooting from distance and scoring good goals, plenty of assists.........where has he gone??

If CH "knows what he is doing on a coaching pitch and how to work with young players" WHY oh WHY have our young players become increasingly poor? Some of the adverse behaviour must be evident on the Coaching Pitch.... surely,....... or am I expecting too much from CH and he really has just not got the skills he has been attributed with by many on this forum and is actually a mediocre (at best) manager/coach.

Perfectly presenting posting!

Torquay United Fans Forum