TorquayFans.com | Torquay United Fans Forum

tl:dr :na:

As ever CP, a thoroughly well constructed and reasoned post and i enjoyed reading it.

However

It's gone wrong and whilst mistakes from the past can be lessons learnt they can't be changed.

Torquay United have failed to let the shock of hitting rock bottom wake themselves up i'm afraid.

The future can be shaped but there aren't any sculptors behind the scenes.

The TUST are the only group i've seen trying to make a difference and i reckon they've attracted a few hundred members and why? Because fans who come on here because they pay their money and feel it is their right to have a dig at others themselves aren't interested in getting involved because it is too much hassle.

Full respect to TUST and i wish you all the best. A group trying to make TUFC better for the future and are prepared to do something about it.

The future is this. Fans getting together to try and do something positive. Just join up, stop **** moaning at the stay aways and make things happen yourselves if you are that bothered about the club. I fully expect a further 1000 new members by next week.

If the club aren't interested in tightening the bond between them and the fans then it's up to you guys. You keep telling me it's your club and you can never ditch yellow so prove it. Paying your entrance fee each week is simply not enough anymore with such a silent and inactive board - you HAVE to make things happen for yourselves.

Great post CP Gull and I enjoyed reading it. You make a number of interesting points. For me the major factor over a number of years is what I believe to be a lack of ambition on the part of those in charge of the club. I criticised the Bateson years because it was often suggested that we should be grateful to have a league club and if you extend this view, we should all be satisfied with staying in League 2. Well I never bought that argument then or now (although I would of course be happy to be sitting Div 2 now, but only in my mind as a temporary position).
If football is about anything it is about dreams and helping people to realise such dreams. I one day hope I will see my beloved club in the Championship and whilst many may well say this is ridiculous, it is what drives me to look for TUFC's results every week no matter where I am in he world (I'm sure one of the national papers once did an article on us winning in Europe but cannot remember who it was - but it was a great read!!).
At the moment I do not go to the games. This is because I am angry with those who have managed the decline of our club. I fear it will be terminal in nature but desperately hope I am wrong.
With the right leadership, drive and commitment I still believe we could be a successful league 1 club pulling in gates of 5,000 regularly (There is nothing inherently different with the Torbay public compared to any other area in the country as far as football is concerned). Give people the right product and they will buy.
Should I attend games to show my support- guess I should, but I need someone or something to happen to really show me the club wants to grow and thrive and to be an important focal point for the people of the Bay before I feel able to return. In the meantime I will continue to dream......

Thanks for that CP - an excellent read in my lunch hour.

I've been supporting the Gulls for around 16 years now - Mike Bateson was the chairman and Wes was the manager. I managed to see them a few times during that period as I was studying in London and made the trip down by train a few times (bloody expensive that was too!!)

It has to be said that I really do fear for the future of the club with the way that things are going. We do seem to be very much penny pinching everywhere, and much has been said of the lack of budget, and the high wages of some of those on the fringes of the first team. Will it get any better when they, eventually, leave though?
I have been impressed with the sort of players that CH has managed to bring in on a shoestring budget (Young for example!!), and it will be interested to see who he can entice to the club next season when his budget will (well, should be anyway if he gets the wages from those that will leave) surely be greater than the summer previous.

CH is on a hiding to nothing really - a rookie manager that,probably, shouted a little too loudly that he could do a better job, talked himself into it and has been bemoaning his luck every since. That we are still in the fringes of the play offs shows you how shit this league really is, rather than how well the team have done.

It's clear to everybody exactly where the weaknesses lie (defence and goal), and I really do wish that the club would say to CH in January - here is the final throw of the dice, go and grab a keeper on loan (or whatever) and lets make a bloody great push to get out of here.

Of course, CH bemoans the lack of funds, the Board will say they have little money left (how much has Thaea put in now - I''ve no idea, but its a lot!!) and that they need more "bums on seats", and the fans will say they aren't coming because the product is shit - CH will say the product is shit as there is no money and the Board will say they need more through the gates - and so the circle continues.

CP Gull wrote: Fair point, I look forward to hearing that a whole host of local lads are being taken on as Youth trainees next season then! I don't know enough about the current crop of U16s to comment but I take your point that that there may be some potential in there, but correct me if I'm wrong but when we set up the Academy we didn't just recruit at under8s level (the age Osborne would have been when the scheme was reintroduced) presumably we also recruited 9s, 10s, 11s, 12s, 13s, 14s and 16s too didn't we? None of whom seem to have made it through to the u18s and into the first team though.

Even those that have, have by and large been recruited not from within the Academy age groups but instead have been picked up at 16 having been released elsewhere - Spear, MacKenzie, Thompson, Hutchings, Chaney, Sullivan - all as far as I am aware only joined the club (mostly from well outside the area) at 16 as first year trainees as far as I am aware. Even the current crop of youth trainees seem to be drawn largely from outside the area with a number of lads from Northern Ireland, Cyrprus, the London area etc .. admittedly there are one or two exceptions ... Jonny Buckle and Dan Lavercombe are certainly local lads and Liam Prynn is from Cornwall ... time will tell as to how many of them get offered pro deals in the summer, I guess.

It just irks me somewhat when I still hear of local lads turning out for the academies of Exeter and Plymouth when I think they should be with us. Not only that, but I read in the Herald a little while back of a couple of promising kids who play their club football for Marldon getting trials with Premiership clubs including the likes of Chelsea - which is great for them and nothing wrong with progressing their career through their local club - it's just a shame that their local professional club hasn't picked them up though!

Great opening post Chris. You are absolutely right to question are youth set up, yes PlainmoorRoar does make a good point also. I've questioned the youth set a number of times and been shouted down and accused of holding a grudge, that really isn't the case.

Last seasons U16's had been with the academy since they were 9 years old, all the local players were released, every single one of them, in some cases no doubt the decision was correct, but I can tell you one player Paington based lad who'd been with the club since 9, at 16 is already a first team squad player at Buckland and getting paid, he and another Torquay based already been looked at by Plymouth, although Argyle haven't as yet perused any interest in either , know the lad personally, another is at Liverton United at 16 playing peninsula league football, know this lad as well.

I can tell you about another local lad (don't know this one personally, know about him)released from last years U16 who was offered a youth team place at Cheltenham, but turned it down to join the Chelsea foundation academy/education course.

Why are Exeter so successful. I'll tell everyone why, they have a very proactive scouting network, we don't, the old youth set used to have it with John James and Paul Compton, Paul Compton once said in an interview 'it's my job to know where all the best young footballers in this area are' We don't have that now, Exeter City do, sadly.

As many will know I've been a local youth development coach for quite a few years now. Chris CP you may well remember me when I was working in the youth section at Denbury Athletic, we had current Exeter first team squad player Matt Jay at Denbury, and his younger brother ( since released) who was also picked up by City along with others from our club.

I currently work for W.B.B YFC until the end of the season when my U18's go off into the big wide world and after nearly 10 years I'm stepping down for good and getting my life back, the point to this, our mini-soccer teams entered a number of tournaments last summer, Exeter City picked up one of our U10's from that.

Chris the players you refer to, that were in the Herald. One of those lads was Jack Ottway, know his dad well Mick Ottway he's on the pioneer league committee, his lad actually went to Spurs along with another. Mick has been taken on as part Chelsea's south west scouting team.

Point to all the above TUFC youth academy, it doesn't hurt to look further afield for good young players, but stop dismissing local talent, put together a scouting team and go and look, there are loads of talented local lads out there, being snapped by other clubs.

A sobering read from my fellow ST holder - well written Chris!
As an 'exile' who only comes into Devon to watch matches it's not always easy to know what goes on so insight from those who are local helps to paint a picture.
What I do know is that the club is indebted to the Bristow family without whom heaven knows what might have happened already. Having said that during the Bateson era he was approachable (on one occasion after writing to him -before email - he phoned me up to chat through my concerns at the time - in fact as a Torquay supporter when haven't we had concerns!) but at the moment the 'family' feel of the Club is lacking.
I would like to see the Board pro-active but little comes from them in a positive form. Thea's column in TQ One doesn't really tell us fans anything I'm afraid.
For the majority of professional clubs the January transfer window is the last opportunity to show supporters that their club has a plan to move the team forward. We all appreciate that money is tight and CH has recently stated that to get anybody in, players on the books have to leave first (let's all hope Young doesn't move on before the window closes). Well two have parted company in the last two weeks and maybe there will be some other movement.
What saddens me is the loss (according to recent posts) of a number of diehard supporters from turning up at Plainmoor. For me this season has seen improved attacking football witness 46 League goals so there is increased entertainment.
The club needs all the revenue it can muster;last time in the Conference our average home gates in 2007-2008 were around 3800. That extra money now could make a big difference. However as a long-time supporter - 50 years since I watched my first ever Torquay match on January 5th 1965 - I know how fickle the Torbay public are about watching the local team. Cup games against higher opposition and trips to Wembley and suddenly everyone's a Torquay 'fan'!
Those who know me know I travel from my Berkshire home to home and away matches on a regular basis and rather like the marriage vows (for better for worse) I support my team through thick and thin times.

kevgull wrote:I think we should go part time next season.

That is a step in the wrong direction, but if the club cannot sustain the outgoings then there is no choice.
It's better to have a club than no club ask Hereford. We need to cut are cloth all around as the directors seem to be doing. A little bit of luck is needed in the Trophy and that will bring in a few bob.

I think we underestimate the loyalty of our fans actually. I for one will ALWAYS support TUFC whatever league they are in. I have 40+ years history supporting the club through ups and downs and I cannot let that go. I enjoy going to watch Live football. I hate the premiership and all the money that goes with it. Yes I go and watch the odd Basingstoke game because I cannot always afford to travel down to Torquay. But when I retire to Torquay I will go to every game again because win or lose I enjoy going to Plainmoor!! having a pint and supporting the club. I realise Im a bit odd in the fact I don't mind being in the conference, mainly because its a bit different. Obviously I prefer to see more wins than losses but to be honest I don't get too stressed (only during games) what ever happens' as I know there are more important things in life. The debagte on here is entertaining as well, and the more characters and different views the better, also enjoy the odd fall out, all part and parcel of supporting TUFC.

kevgull wrote:I think we should go part time next season.

a late entry into the worst idea of 2014 award but you've probably won it with that.

PlainmoorRoar wrote: a late entry into the worst idea of 2014 award but you've probably won it with that.

Agree. Please explain why you find that a good idea, kevgull?

Good post CP Gull, I too rarely post much on this forum as I have lost enthusiasm, including attending matches. I agree with pretty much all you have written.
I tend to think that the earlier years FA Cup exit against Crawley was a crucial tipping point. I don't think I have seen queues to enter the ground as long as they were for quite some time especially as it was a bitterly cold day . The atmosphere at the Christmas home game against Swindon when we only had 3 stands was fantastic.

Much has been mentioned about the Youth system. I have been coaching for the last 5 years, firstly at Galmpton U10 , U11 and now at Marldon U10. During my spell at Galmpton where my son played I only ever saw one(1) visit from a TUFC youth coach. Considering at that time Galmpton were in the top 2 for all that Pioneer league season. During the game I spoke with the TUFC coach who was not really watching(the game) to enquire what his role was and what he was looking for in a player at that age, he couldn't really answer my question which I found very surprising. At the end of that game he came to ask if he could talk to one of our players and his father about if he would like to train and play for TUFC. The boy said no straight away. His father asked the coach what would happen if he did sign for TUFC and the coach said that he would not be able to continue with Galmpton whether training or playing. He would have to travel here there and everywhere and no game time is promised. Father said no wonder he doesn't want to play!! During those 2 seasons I watched some very talented lads and speaking with all the other coaches it was normal for lads to turn down TUFC.
Now with Marldon U10 I have never seen a TUFC coach at any match. I have seen Colin Lee a couple of times at training looking at some of the older lads for the Chelsea/S, Dartmoor College thing. Talking with many of the other teams coaches if TUFC come knocking then no one is interested, if Exeter come knocking then that's a different situation. I have seen 2 local boys at u10 level leave there teams and move to Exeter with there coaches blessing.
I feel in the main that local clubs are developing young lads better than what TUFC youth system can. Exeter is far superior and we all know it.

I will leave you all with this thought that just about sums TUFC up, i spoke to one of the directors a couple of years ago and enquired if he would be attending the next home game, he said i doubt it, iam really a rugby man and would prefer to watch that instead of going to TUFC!!!

arcadia wrote: That is a step in the wrong direction, but if the club cannot sustain the outgoings then there is no choice.
It's better to have a club than no club ask Hereford. We need to cut are cloth all around as the directors seem to be doing. A little bit of luck is needed in the Trophy and that will bring in a few bob.

Teams finishing in the top 6 of the Conference are most likely to have a good setup throughout their clubs which would enable them to hold their own in the league 2. Unfortunately, at this present time, I do not see this at Torquay United . If we were a stick of rock we would have "Conference" written right through us.

The quality of management and players alike has been slipping since we sold the family jewels that were put together under the Martin Lings era. Poor decision making at Boardroom level has seen the demise of TUFC in recent years.

Although we dared to put a little run together during the early part of this season we now seem to be struggling to find any sort of consistency. The next few games are crucial for us as possible defeats to Bristol Rovers and Bromley could seal our season. Home gates will fall accordingly and we will be scrabbling for financial survival.

It is nearly January and I am not feeling the passion as from previous seasons. As a former Season ticket holder I am being increasingly disolusioned with Torquay United. If ONLY we could off load some of the squad in January and make the rest up with decent hungry part timers!

forevertufc wrote: Great opening post Chris. You are absolutely right to question are youth set up, yes PlainmoorRoar does make a good point also. I've questioned the youth set a number of times and been shouted down and accused of holding a grudge, that really isn't the case.

Last seasons U16's had been with the academy since they were 9 years old, all the local players were released, every single one of them, in some cases no doubt the decision was correct, but I can tell you one player Paington based lad who'd been with the club since 9, at 16 is already a first team squad player at Buckland and getting paid, he and another Torquay based already been looked at by Plymouth, although Argyle haven't as yet perused any interest in either , know the lad personally, another is at Liverton United at 16 playing peninsula league football, know this lad as well.

I can tell you about another local lad (don't know this one personally, know about him)released from last years U16 who was offered a youth team place at Cheltenham, but turned it down to join the Chelsea foundation academy/education course.

Why are Exeter so successful. I'll tell everyone why, they have a very proactive scouting network, we don't, the old youth set used to have it with John James and Paul Compton, Paul Compton once said in an interview 'it's my job to know where all the best young footballers in this area are' We don't have that now, Exeter City do, sadly.

As many will know I've been a local youth development coachfor quite a few years now. Chris CP you may well remember me when I was working in the youth section at Denbury Athletic, we had current Exeter first team squad player Matt Jay at Denbury, and his younger brother ( since released) who was also picked up by City along with others from our club.

I currently work for W.B.B YFC until the end of the season when my U18's go off into the big wide world and after nearly 10 years I'm stepping down for good and getting my life back, the point to this, our mini-soccer teams entered a number of tournaments last summer, Exeter City picked up one of our U10's from that.

Chris the players you refer to, that were in the Herald. One of those lads was Jack Ottway, know his dad well Mick Ottway he's on the pioneer league committee, his lad actually went to Spurs along with another. Mick has been taken on as part Chelsea's south west scouting team.

Point to all the above TUFC youth academy, it doesn't hurt to look further afield for good young players, but stop dismissing local talent, put together a scouting team and go and look, there are loads of talented local lads out there, being snapped by other clubs.

Really good footballer he goes my school. Another is Kingsley he was told by Torquay he's too short to make it as a midfielder and now is at exeter. Loads of others that were in u14/15s have left and are going for cheasea programme.

forevertufc wrote: Last seasons U16's had been with the academy since they were 9 years old, all the local players were released, every single one of them, in some cases no doubt the decision was correct, but I can tell you one player Paington based lad who'd been with the club since 9, at 16 is already a first team squad player at Buckland and getting paid, he and another Torquay based already been looked at by Plymouth, although Argyle haven't as yet perused any interest in either , know the lad personally, another is at Liverton United at 16 playing peninsula league football, know this lad as well.

I can tell you about another local lad (don't know this one personally, know about him)released from last years U16 who was offered a youth team place at Cheltenham, but turned it down to join the Chelsea foundation academy/education course.

I obviously don't know the ins and outs of this but it seems to me that part of the commitment to the youth programme should be an acknowledgement that we'll occasionally have to take a chance on a kid or two. I doubt very much that has been built into the budget, so every season we're faced with the decision of either taking money from an already-tight playing budget for a young player who represents a great risk, or play it safe and use that cash with a 'seasoned' (yet, lets face it, probably still cheap!) pro. Ideally we'd be in a position to offer a 16 year old a 2-year contract, and have him train with the first team. I realise that is a substantial investment at a time when money is tight, but the club won't be able to make hay with youth if they don't give the players produced at least a fighting chance. it's also important to remember that we do necessarily compete with other clubs for the really young kids, and parents aren't going to want to let them come to Torquay if nobody ever gets a 'fair' shake; and *especially* when they look up the road and see that Exeter are making it work for them.

ethantufcbaker wrote:[Really good footballer he goes my school. Another is Kingsley he was told by Torquay he's too short to make it as a midfielder and now is at exeter. Loads of others that were in u14/15s have left and are going for cheasea programme.

Yep know about Kingsley, he played a few games for Stoke Gabriel U16 last season after he was released, he's on the pioneer league referees list as well , his dad told me he had got a trial at Exeter, I did tell his old man if he didn't get offered anything give be a ring and I'll sign him.. Whilst I'm pleased for the lad he got offered something, disappointed from our clubs point of view, that we've let another young local lad go only for him to get picked up elsewhere.

What your saying about the player being to small rings true, I've spoken to a few parents of and players we've let go and size is a familiar story, I'm hearing the same story over and over again, which also proves something I said a while back about what Geoff Harrop say's in public and what he does in reality are two different things.

EDIT; Sorry my haste to answer another post forgot to add. I'd would say to any young player, just be wary of the Chelsea programme running in this area up at South Dartmoor College, they are selling a dream, yes they play in a national college league and yes if you join their scheme you will get the chance to play at Chelsea's Cobham training ground, but, no, Jose isn't going to be tripping our himself to sign any of these players, and sadly Arsenal soccer schools are moving into Newton Abbot college to offer a rival course from September.

My advice to young player who haven't been offered anything with a pro club in this area, is to take a good look at the scheme run at South Devon college, who's head coach is our former player Alex Watson, where this beats all the others, including our own course, is the educational side of it there more add on courses you can do as CV builders, and the fact the priority on this course education is the priority over football, where as other courses, are the other way around. Young player need to ask themselves, do I want make something of my life, or just live the dream for 2 years.

happytorq wrote: I obviously don't know the ins and outs of this but it seems to me that part of the commitment to the youth programme should be an acknowledgement that we'll occasionally have to take a chance on a kid or two. I doubt very much that has been built into the budget, so every season we're faced with the decision of either taking money from an already-tight playing budget for a young player who represents a great risk, or play it safe and use that cash with a 'seasoned' (yet, lets face it, probably still cheap!) pro. Ideally we'd be in a position to offer a 16 year old a 2-year contract, and have him train with the first team. I realise that is a substantial investment at a time when money is tight, but the club won't be able to make hay with youth if they don't give the players produced at least a fighting chance. it's also important to remember that we do necessarily compete with other clubs for the really young kids, and parents aren't going to want to let them come to Torquay if nobody ever gets a 'fair' shake; and *especially* when they look up the road and see that Exeter are making it work for them.

I fully understand all of that. What I'm particularly focusing on is young local players who've say joined the club at 9 gone through the academy until their 16 and then released rather than offered a scholar professional contract, you're right about budgets and to be fair our academy, they're just as restricted as the first team squad on budgets. I was lucky to have a brief conversation with one of our clubs senior coaching staff on this, he said some of the lads in the academy would be better off in the youth set up of a much bigger club where they have budgets to run a number of squads at each age group, from full academy down to performance/development centre, he said sometimes it really is a case of them looking at three players wanting to keep them all, however knowing they can't, so a big decision has to be taken.

When any club makes a decision about young players it's a risk either way, all clubs from time to time let a lad go who develops late and turns into the next big thing, and from time to time they keep hold of a dud that's just the way it is. I really do not want to come across as deliberately being negative about our own youth system, I just get disappointed knowing the individual development cost for a player who joins at 9 and is retained to 16 can run into a four figure sum, only for the absolute majority of them to be released and either picked up by another professional club or given semi-pro contracts at top local non-league clubs.

I fully understand our club can only work with a small number of young players, and they must insure they get the best players, and if that's from outside the area then so be it. Part of me however wonders whether our club have fallen into the trap of believing, the 17 year old lad from London who's been through, say Charlton's youth system is automatically going turn out better than the 17 year old from Torquay who's been through our set up.

The club up the road have proved there is the talent around Devon and the South west in general , I, personally would just like to see local youngsters given more of a shot at making it in the game at our club, at the moment they're clearly being passed over.