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portugull wrote:You are completely missing the point.

No, I'm responding to the "woe is me" posts about red tape and improved atmosphere in the absence (partial or total) of stewards.

The cost is, doubtless, astronomical, but there's **** all we can do about it, because just sometimes, one or two mongs get a bit over excited and do something **** stupid. The SAG then point to that and suggest that we are failing in our H&S duties. Those genuinely to blame are those who voted Labour in 1997. It all started with that bunch of wet blankets. Imagine the Iranian Embassy siege under a Labour government, we'd still be there now, ensuring that the group sent to talk nicely to the terrorists was sufficiently ethnically diverse.

Matt.

ferrarilover wrote: No, I'm responding to the "woe is me" posts about red tape and improved atmosphere in the absence (partial or total) of stewards.

The cost is, doubtless, astronomical, but there's f*** all we can do about it, because just sometimes, one or two mongs get a bit over excited and do something f**king stupid. The SAG then point to that and suggest that we are failing in our H&S duties. Those genuinely to blame are those who voted Labour in 1997. It all started with that bunch of wet blankets. Imagine the Iranian Embassy siege under a Labour government, we'd still be there now, ensuring that the group sent to talk nicely to the terrorists was sufficiently ethnically diverse. Matt.

Ah yes, Matt, but ....... on the subject of wet blankets and overkill, who was it who demanded all seater stadiums when she knew feck all about football and wouldn't listen to football fans about what they liked ? Yes - dear departed Maggie Thatcher. :na:

In an attempt to appease the professional grief junkies and Labour stronghold, Liverpool.

Matt.

ferrarilover wrote:In an attempt to appease the professional grief junkies and Labour stronghold, Liverpool. Matt.

Poor taste, Matt, although the Hillsborough horror was the cause of the over-reaction to make stadiums all seater.

That isn't a Hillsborough jibe, it's a Liverpool one. I know it's not your thing, but have a look on Twitter any time a celebrity dies. All you'll see is bloody Scousers Tweeting shit like, "Robin Williams,in heaven with the angles and the 96 now. #YNWA #JFT96."

Everything with Liverpool is some excuse to yack on about how persecuted they are and how life isn't fair. They absolutely love being the victims, Hillsborough was an appalling tragedy which cost 96 people their lives and many others too in some way. What has happened since is scandalous, but it's time to let go and for the city of Liverpool and its inhabitants to move on and lose the victims tag. In part, they can do this by voting for a government which will give everyone the opportunity to achieve, rather than a government which seems hell bent on rewarding fecklessness and driving us all down to the speed of the slowest vessel.

I fear this has ceased to be about football...

Matt.

ferrarilover wrote:That isn't a Hillsborough jibe, it's a Liverpool one. I know it's not your thing, but have a look on Twitter any time a celebrity dies. All you'll see is bloody Scousers Tweeting sh*t like, "Robin Williams,in heaven with the angles and the 96 now. #YNWA #JFT96."

Everything with Liverpool is some excuse to yack on about how persecuted they are and how life isn't fair. They absolutely love being the victims, Hillsborough was an appalling tragedy which cost 96 people their lives and many others too in some way. What has happened since is scandalous, but it's time to let go and for the city of Liverpool and its inhabitants to move on and lose the victims tag. In part, they can do this by voting for a government which will give everyone the opportunity to achieve, rather than a government which seems hell bent on rewarding fecklessness and driving us all down to the speed of the slowest vessel.

I fear this has ceased to be about football...

Matt.

Usually does when you get involved Matt.

ferrarilover wrote:That isn't a Hillsborough jibe, it's a Liverpool one. I know it's not your thing, but have a look on Twitter any time a celebrity dies. All you'll see is bloody Scousers Tweeting sh*t like, "Robin Williams,in heaven with the angles and the 96 now. #YNWA #JFT96."

Everything with Liverpool is some excuse to yack on about how persecuted they are and how life isn't fair. They absolutely love being the victims, Hillsborough was an appalling tragedy which cost 96 people their lives and many others too in some way. What has happened since is scandalous, but it's time to let go and for the city of Liverpool and its inhabitants to move on and lose the victims tag. In part, they can do this by voting for a government which will give everyone the opportunity to achieve, rather than a government which seems hell bent on rewarding fecklessness and driving us all down to the speed of the slowest vessel.

I fear this has ceased to be about football...

Matt.

Your problem Matt is you just don't say what you think :~D

Well after all that what is the Annual Cost of Stewarding at Plainmoor? Someone must know and I bet it is astronomical and out of all proportion to Annual Gate Receipts.

The chance of a serious fire is almost nil now the wooden stand has gone. Risk assessment needs reviewing. We are wasting money BIG TIME!

This would be funny if it was not seriously losing us money which could be better spent on players and getting out of the Conference ASAP.

So long as Matt continues to display any kind of ambivalence about political correctness, there will be hope for us all..

portugull wrote:Well after all that what is the Annual Cost of Stewarding at Plainmoor? Someone must know and I bet it is astronomical and out of all proportion to Annual Gate Receipts.

The chance of a serious fire is almost nil now the wooden stand has gone. Risk assessment needs reviewing. We are wasting money BIG TIME!

This would be funny if it was not seriously losing us money which could be better spent on players and getting out of the Conference ASAP.

The accounts are a matter of public record. Someone please jump up and down screaming if I'm wrong, but the figures would surely be mentioned in there?

Matt.

portugull wrote:Well after all that what is the Annual Cost of Stewarding at Plainmoor? Someone must know and I bet it is astronomical and out of all proportion to Annual Gate Receipts.

The chance of a serious fire is almost nil now the wooden stand has gone. Risk assessment needs reviewing. We are wasting money BIG TIME!

This would be funny if it was not seriously losing us money which could be better spent on players and getting out of the Conference ASAP.

I see where you're coming from Portugal. The stewarding costs are probably astronomical in relation to gate receipts but as Matt so bluntly puts it, there's feck all we can do about it ! It is money that could possibly be used elsewhere but the club isn't wasting money as all clubs are required to provide stewards at matches. The likelihood of a serious incident at Plainmoor may be very remote. Some health & safety regulations seem ridiculous on the face of it and Elf & Safety has become fair game for comedians. But going back to Forever's post, what nobody knows, or can even make a guess, is how many lives have been saved by the introduction of Health & Safety measures ?

Unless we are seeking to be the only Club exempted from health and safety laws, it will make no competitive difference to the quality of our squad anyway. We'd still be spending more money, but it would be for the same chance of promotion, and fewer stewards in the ground.

So the debate rumbles on, some, myself included have tried to point the club has to abide by the green guide to safety at sports grounds, which actually covers all sports, there's nothing the club can do about it.

http://www.safetyatsportsgrounds.org.uk ... reen-guide click the pdf link near the bottom of the page, the important bits are on page 30 and 40.

The chances of a major fire breaking out at Plainmoor, ground collapse, or major disorder breaking out are lower than low. However with in the family stand there is no10's, Gulls nest and Boots and Laces, with pressurized beer kegs (co2) electrical kitchen equipment etc, so there is a risk, of a small/large fire, explosion and a gas leak. In the highly unlikely event of that ever happening , depending on the scale of any problem, it would require the match to be abandoned and ground evacuated, so that's one thing we cant skimp on.

tomogull wrote: I see where you're coming from Portugal. The stewarding costs are probably astronomical in relation to gate receipts but as Matt so bluntly puts it, there's feck all we can do about it ! It is money that could possibly be used elsewhere but the club isn't wasting money as all clubs are required to provide stewards at matches. The likelihood of a serious incident at Plainmoor may be very remote. Some health & safety regulations seem ridiculous on the face of it and Elf & Safety has become fair game for comedians. But going back to Forever's post, what nobody knows, or can even make a guess, is how many lives have been saved by the introduction of Health & Safety measures ?

Yeah, lives have been saved, but there has to come a point where we draw the line and say that life carries with it an inherent danger and that the costs of mitigating effectively against that danger outweigh the benefits. This is the problem with the Speed Kills lobby. Yes, the faster you're going, the more likely it is that you'll be killed if you crash, but equally, the less time it takes to get to your destination. The only truly safe speed is zero. If we completely ignore the realities of life, then sure, we can make the roads totally casualty free. All it will mean is that we have to regress to the state we were in 2000 years ago, where the only method of transportation was walking. That was the last time that getting from A to B was truly safe. If that is a price worth paying, then pay it. If not, then accept that everything is dangerous (relatively) and act accordingly.

I've been to some incredibly dangerous places. I've piloted aircraft, ridden motorcycles in shorts and a t-shirt, driven at eyewatering speed, used a chainsaw, spent masses of time handling firearms, skied without a helmet, walked to work along a 70mph A road, ridden poorly maintained Chinese rollercoasters, flown over the Grand Canyon with Papillon Airways, the company with the poorest safety record in aviation history*. I've wandered about the red half of Liverpool in a blue hat and on the seafront in the face of 30 foot waves. I've walked through unlit San Diego streets in the early morning and a million and one other "dangerous" things. None of it with the aid of the HSE and the worst thing that's ever happened to me was that once, a long time ago, I stubbed my toe on the coffee table. Some on here will have you believe that I am one of the stupidest people in the country, so you've got to ask yourself, that the hell are the rest of you doing so wrong?

Matt.

* this probably isn't true, but I have read that they're far from safety conscious.

Anyway, football, it's good, innit?

ferrarilover wrote: Yeah, lives have been saved, but there has to come a point where we draw the line and say that life carries with it an inherent danger and that the costs of mitigating effectively against that danger outweigh the benefits.

Yes, fully agree - but the difficulty is - where do you draw that line ?

I've been to some incredibly dangerous places. I've piloted aircraft, ridden motorcycles in shorts and a t-shirt, driven at eyewatering speed, used a chainsaw, spent masses of time handling firearms, skied without a helmet, walked to work along a 70mph A road, ridden poorly maintained Chinese rollercoasters, flown over the Grand Canyon with Papillon Airways, the company with the poorest safety record in aviation history*. I've wandered about the red half of Liverpool in a blue hat and on the seafront in the face of 30 foot waves. I've walked through unlit San Diego streets in the early morning and a million and one other "dangerous" things. None of it with the aid of the HSE and the worst thing that's ever happened to me was that once, a long time ago, I stubbed my toe on the coffee table. Some on here will have you believe that I am one of the stupidest people in the country, so you've got to ask yourself, that the hell are the rest of you doing so wrong?

I can top all of that, Matt - I have walked along Torquay Harbourside on a Saturday night ...... =D =D