So what is the problem?

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hector
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Post by hector »

Fonda wrote:Marquis and McCallum are higher league players. With all due respect, the reason we have Benyon and Hawley is because we're a League 2 club (temporarily) and they are League 2 players. If they were as good as Marquis and McCallum they wouldn't be here. It's for the same reason we have sub-standard full-backs and midfielders that struggle to pass from a to b consistently. It's pointless comparing what 'our' strikers can do compared to players in other leagues. A Championship level striker might take 1 in 3/4 chances presented. At league 2 level, it's more likely to be 1 in 5/6. It's not massively confusing.
That is the problem though, with your rather generous assessment of the merits of Benyon and Hawley. They are not League 2 players, other than by virtue of being paid to play at this level. The reality is that if they were League 2 players - or competent ones, at least, then we would not be in this position. The fact is they are not even Conference standard, so we are trying to play League football with forwards who Bideford might be grateful to have but no higher.

They may not have had the service but then look how Coulthirst made things happen on his own. Benyon would still fall over if the ball was passed to him by Messi and Hawley would still be playing with his back to goal. Neither can finish and for Benyon with his 3 goals in probably about 30 hours of football, just says it all.

It is like we have been play 4-4-0 all season.
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Post by tomogull »

gullno4 wrote:the amount of times the ball is played accross the six yard box with no Torquay striker even anywhere near close to getting it, the strikers are at fault for their own piss poor scoring form!
In one sentence, this sums up the biggest failing this season. You just have to look at the stats each week. Last Saturday, for example, we managed just THREE shots on target and presumably one of those was Tonge's penalty. It was bad luck that both McCallum and Marquis picked up injuries and returned to their parent clubs.
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Post by Fonda »

hector wrote: That is the problem though, with your rather generous assessment of the merits of Benyon and Hawley. They are not League 2 players, other than by virtue of being paid to play at this level. The reality is that if they were League 2 players - or competent ones, at least, then we would not be in this position. The fact is they are not even Conference standard, so we are trying to play League football with forwards who Bideford might be grateful to have but no higher.

They may not have had the service but then look how Coulthirst made things happen on his own. Benyon would still fall over if the ball was passed to him by Messi and Hawley would still be playing with his back to goal. Neither can finish and for Benyon with his 3 goals in probably about 30 hours of football, just says it all.

It is like we have been play 4-4-0 all season.
So if we're singling out the strikers in this manner, presumably the rest of the squad is packed with quality? How many players do we have that would get in to another team in this division? Pearce. Chappell. Bodin and Cameron on a good day. Anymore? The blame for our predicament is no more the fault of mis-firing strikers than it is pedestrian full-backs and static, ineffective midfielders.
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Post by Sunnysideup »

gullno4 wrote:the amount of times the ball is played accross the six yard box with no Torquay striker even anywhere near close to getting it, the strikers are at fault for their own piss poor scoring form!
And how many times this season has it been Benyon playing the ball across the 6 yard box?

He spends the majority of his pitch time chasing down balls punted into the channels that a winger should be running down.
The fact the he manages to get so many of them is impressive for someone that, if some posters on here are to be taken seriously, isnt Conference standard or dives face-first any time an opponent comes near him.

It doesnt matter how talented a forward is, no one is fast enough to put the ball in the box and then get on the end of it.
Newport was a prime example of how it happens. Benyon chased down the full back, won the ball and slotted a cross in the area between the goalkeeper (who didnt leave his line) and behind the defenders marking Bodin and Yeoman. Bodin and Yeoman just stood on the edge of the area and watched the sodding ball.
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Post by hector »

Any sort of forward worth his salt, even with the crappest of service would manage more than 3 sodding goals. In a year! We read of players who score that in a single game not an entire bloody season. Benyon is crap. The mere fact that he sometimes manages to collect the ball on the wing without falling over or getting muscled off the ball does not qualify him to be worthy of the name as a forward.

THREE sodding goals. Atrocious. Abysmal. Crap.
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Post by hector »

Furthermore, it didn't take Swindon, Wycombe or Southend to work out how ineffective he is before casting him aside but it seems there are one or two Torquay fans who cling on to his flash-in-the-pan season a few years ago, when we actually then improved after he went and cost Danny Wilson his job.
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Post by Sunnysideup »

hector wrote:one or two Torquay fans who cling on to his flash-in-the-pan season a few years ago,
Usual inaccurate crap. Do you ever bother looking at something like soccerbase before making yourself look a dull ****?

12 in 2008/9, 15 in 2009/10 and 14 in 2010/11 before leaving in January. Just a flash in the pan though
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Post by tommyg »

I was happy Benyon signed last summer. He ended the season strongly after scoring a brace against Rovers and I thought he could mirror his last full season with us when he was on course to break the 20-goal barrier before being sold on deadline day in January. But he doesn't look the same player. His confidence has been drained and he has wasted quite a few chances this season which three years ago he would have buried. He's also always slipping/tripping over. His record this season is undefendable. To be outscored by your centre-backs is unacceptable. In hindsight, we should have signed Rendell. That wasn't a popular option at the time he was on trial but he couldn't have done any worse.
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Post by AustrianAndyGull »

Managers playing players based on what they 'think' they can do instead of what they actually do out on the pitch.

Managers bringing in shit players to fill in for these said players when they get rested .

No leadership whatsoever from ANYWHERE within the organization that is Torquay United Football Club.

NO PLAYER willing to step forward and adopt personal responsibility for anything whatsoever out on the field of play.

Concurrent inept managers.
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Post by hector »

Sunnysideup wrote: Usual inaccurate crap. Do you ever bother looking at something like soccerbase before making yourself look a dull tw*t?

12 in 2008/9, 15 in 2009/10 and 14 in 2010/11 before leaving in January. Just a flash in the pan though
So fill us in what he has been doing for the last three years! If he is such a prolific forward he would at least get the occasional shot on target but even that is beyond him. He has a better chance of being booked than scoring a goal. His yellow card count outscores his goals by 5 to 3. He is the latest in a long line of small, slow forwards, who fall over and don't score. Last season he managed to score in just 3 out of 26 games - the year before 3 goals in 30 games (again, more prolific in the yellow card count) - so you point a season in non-league and two seasons in the league.

The fact is that since he left us he has scored just 11 goals in 103 appearances - so a goal almost every 10 games...or were Swindon, Wycombe & Southend also guilty of not giving him good enough service?

The unfortunate truth is that we are lumbered with Benyon and Hawley firing blanks (or to be honest, not even firing) next season. That will be the most likely reason for any failure in the Conference next season - basically continuing to play 4-4-0.
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Post by SuperNickyWroe »

in repsonse to the OP.

we are p155 poor as well as sh*t.

next......
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Post by hector »

SuperNickyWroe wrote:in repsonse to the OP.

we are p155 poor as well as sh*t.

next......
We're not even that good!
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Post by PL21gull »

Given that we do not make real chances from open play, it would be helpful if we could at least convert free-kicks from just outside the box. However, despite having ages to compose oneself while the wall has to be positioned/repositioned/told to stand still, our strikers stand around before carelessly shovelling the ball over the bar or wide (not Stockley).
Pathetic and so unprofessional - most visiting goalkeepers have not even been tested.
What do we do in training???
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Post by taxilady »

:} :} :} well PL21, we were promised on the deck attacking football, so that must be what happens in training, because we certainly haven't seen it in the hoof-ball paid-for matches !!!!!! :'( :'(
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Post by Glostergull »

yellowforever wrote:So what’s the problem?

On arrival at Plainmoor I couldn’t help but notice a strange fog cover over the hallowed turf. I hadn’t been there that often this season, mainly because I haven’t been in Torquay and have had to resign to following it on the radio and BBC sport, thinking that through this I could understand what had gone on at the club. It had been raining most of the day, and it seemed like a darkness had been covering the club most of the year. Perhaps after this weekend’s result, there finally is no hope for this season left.

Call it naivety or perhaps something stronger, but at kick off I was very much in the “how bad can it be” camp. A combination of the forum and the radio service had painted a bleak picture for me, but unlike reading a book and watching a film, the words had failed to invoke my imagination enough to capture the horror.

I actually liked the way we set up. Back 5 looked reasonable enough, the full backs worried me a little but I liked the partnership of O’Connor and Pearce – two competent league centre-backs. Lathrope and Mansell looked solid enough, and the promise of a bit of pace in the 3 slots above, with Cameron, Bodin and the new boy Coulthirst was moderately encouraging. Hawley made up the last slot and I was hoping he’d want to make an impact against the club that released him last year. We even started well, Cameron and Coulthirst impressed on the wings and Hawley tried his best to link the play. A bit of real quality emerged with Cameron’s darting run before a delicate chip struck the bar. In general the play was actually not too bad, it was devoid of any real ability other than brief moments of Shaq and Cameron, but scunthorpe were certainly not pulling up any trees.

The early promise was quickly extinguished by Pearce’s lunge on the scunthorpe player in the box. It seemed like an entirely unnecessary brain-capitulation that we had become accustomed to all season, and this was emphasised by the wave of apathy that broke out around me in the Pop after the Referee pointed to the spot. The supposed £300,000 worthy striker tucked away the resultant penalty in perhaps his only effective contribution of the evening, leading me to question how he’s quite managed to be the top scorer in this league. A question quickly answered when seeing him in comparison to our roster.

The aforementioned striker even managed to return the favour by fouling Pearce at a corner, before Tonge prodded the spot-kick tamely to the keepers left – not the hardest save in the world, but one he did well enough to make. While everyone around me was mouthing off at the right-back’s pacified effort, my anger was directed at the 6 or so players standing over the kick who appeared to shade away to the back of the queue, much like a group of school boys trying to get the scapegoated kid to knock on the head-teacher’s door. It’s a time like that when you need your main players to stand up. Sure Hawley had missed a penalty earlier in the season, but this was a different game and against his old club as an experienced striker – why was he not fighting everyone off it? Lee Mansell, our captain hit the floor in anger at the end of the game – where was that drive when he had the chance to guide us into the break level with the table-toppers? Billy Bodin was also involved; apparently £70,000 on a forward player doesn’t get you one who can take a penalty better than a free transfer right back who has scored 1 goal in around 200 or so games. This lack of passion and determination has been present for too long throughout the squad.

From then onwards after half time it was much of the same. Coulthirst continued to impress, but the previously exciting Courtney Cameron phased out of the game and struggled to get on the ball as much. Lathrope ran around a bit I suppose, and managed to influence the game a bit more than Mansell did, who failed to put his foot on the ball and do anything. Hawley too spent most of his time offside and provided no goal threat at all, but did at least try to link up play, only to find his midfield as static as a cow in winter and no runners at all.

The final straw appeared to be the substitution of the only talented player on the pitch, including the away team. After roasting the left back over and over again on his own he was withdrawn with a rousing boo; in truth he looked as perplexed as the fans did. Ash came on and didn’t really touch the ball, Stockley looked ok before being sent off for an elbow to the face, but all in all we didn’t really look like scoring. The miracle didn’t materialise. Some stayed to clap at the end, but most headed straight to the turnstiles.

So then, what’s the problem? Unfortunately, it appears to be a mixture of many things. One singular quality forward player hasn’t changed much at all, it’s a problem right at the core of the team.

The set-up of the team was not too bad. The sitting midfielders of Lee and Damon did allow Cameron and Coulthirst to bomb forward with wanton abandon, exploiting their flair and pace. Sitting unfortunately was the operative word of the whole midfield and Bodin in particular did not offer enough going forward behind Hawley, who did his best to link play together to no avail. Damon occasionally bombed forward, but he quite simply doesn’t possess the pace nor guile to accomplish enough there. I personally was an advocate of moving Coulthirst into the centre to try and get him involved more, anytime he got a sight of goal he was reluctant to have a go with his clearly weaker left foot and so cutting in on the right was entirely ineffectual.

I don’t buy entirely into the argument that with a top quality striker we’d be much better off, but I will concede that it’d assuage some of the problem. The abundance of 1-0 losses this season tells its own story, and our ability to score goals has been much worse than our attempts to keep them out. There’s two sides to scoring though; being able to put it in the net, and being able to facilitate the chances required to do so. We didn’t seem to create any clear chances, a couple of 50/50s but nothing you’d expect a striker to gobble up. All the attacking penetration happened wide, and neither winger could get a good enough cross in from open play, which wasn’t helped by the lack of movement in the middle. It was boring, predictable, and bar a few bits of individual ability (Stockley free kick, Coulthirst runs) not particularly threatening. All the scunthorpe team had to do was double up on Shaq and we were finished.

This season has been atrocious, but there’s a few players of note left in the squad that would be good next season, even if a miracle happened and we stayed up. The defence is ok, perhaps the full backs could do with an upgrade but I’m willing to persevere there in light of the burning problem in the forward areas. The midfield is static, but I feel Lathrope comes out with some credit and in general I think he’s a good player. Mansell was lost, Bodin invisible, and Hawley spent the whole game with his back to goal - partly his fault because of a lack of movement but also because of a terrible deficiency of service, how is he meant to play when the only ball he receives is one booted into his midriff? Where is Chapell as well?

Sorry for the long protracted post, but I don’t post that often and I feel this has encapsulated most of my feelings. My final opinion on the key issue:

Hargreaves deserves a chance to stay. He set up the team in an encouraging fashion, and if he’s able to recruit well in the summer I’m confident we’ll see a better Torquay. I hope the club is able to adequately support him in terms of signings next year, but I guess costs must be cut. I just hope he goes for the right players, young, exciting, and hungry – not ones looking for a comfortable paycheque. On top of this, we need an experienced head in the middle of the park who can put his foot on the ball and pass it. Lathrope can do the dirty work, but someone who can pick a pass would really help this team tick.


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