TUST Updates

[Soupdragon]

I don't see how the TUST will ever be in a position where it has more money to offer than CO

And I don't see why it shouldn't!

But of course, it needn't be TUST buying the ground at all ...

[Jerry]

And I don't see why it shouldn't!

But of course, it needn't be TUST buying the ground at all ...

It's often been suggested that Norman Smurthwaite would love to buy the club if he could offload Port Vale. Maybe he might be interested in purchasing the ground to protect the club's existence until such time as he can sell Vale?

[chunkygull]

I would hope the council/Mayor/TDA etc wouldnt even consider Osborns advances but I aint gonna bet on it. Knowing they wouldnt do it could make a huge difference in the fight to still have a club. It would be nice that they would sell to TUST even, thats if some sort of set in stone clause was put in that ground could only be used for football or any version of TUFC in general. I wouldnt have thought this sort of thing possible until I started reading the stuff about Hartlepool, but if they can do it then why couldnt our council give our club the same sort of confidence by assurances.

If we did lose the fight and the council etc show their true form and agree the freehold could be sold then I hope it goes out to tender and Osborn gets gazumped. #anyone but Osborn.

[merse btpir]

With respect; a lot of you on here don't really have a grasp of what you are posting about. Let me explain.........

As the club is structured now and with the legalities of the Community Benefit Societies (CBS) aegis under which TUST exists, I feel it is once again pertinent to explain to any supporter who is not already a member exactly why I feel they should become one. When you are joining TUST you are not buying in to membership or ownership of Torquay United FC; let's get that straight from the off!

The trust is a form of Co-operative that operates under a one-member one-vote principle. CBS’ are registered with the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA), and any changes to the rules must be approved by the members and only become effective once the FCA has agreed them, checking they are in keeping with the spirit of the organisation. The members own all assets and liabilities collectively, and any profit made is either kept as reserves or reinvested to meet its objects. They are not charities and whilst they contain the word ‘Trust’ they do not follow the legal definition of a ‘Trust’.

Although roughly 100 football trusts currently have shares in their clubs; TUST do not.

In British sports, a supporters' trust is a formal, democratic and not-for-profit organisation of fans who attempt to strengthen the influence of supporters over the running of the club they support. There are over 140 supporters' trusts across England, Wales and Scotland and the majority of these are affiliated to football clubs, however trusts also exist for Rugby League and Rugby Union clubs.

With government and with cross-party support, Supporters Direct was established to encourage the formation of supporters' trusts to promote democratic supporter ownership. SD encourages these bodies to be formed as Industrial and Provident Societies (IPSs) and assists with their formation, legal and start-up costs.

Supporters' trusts were commonly founded in response to a financial crisis which threatens the future of a club, as was the case at Chesterfield, Lincoln City and York City amongst others. Their involvement has reportedly ensured the survival of over 20 different clubs entering into administration, particularly during the period of crisis as a result of the collapse of ITV Digital. Supporters' trusts are now more commonly founded in order to increase influence at clubs through a financial stake in the club.

The Trust are unable to support in the day to day operations of the club in its current structure as they cannot be seen to be acting outside their legal structure. Let nobody mistake any funds being put in to bail any current ownership out as an investment, no-one can offer any guarantee that those funds would ever be returned and, because of the control that Clarke Osborne presently exerts through his share option, no-one can offer effective equity in return for any funds.

So when you are joining the trust you are joining the supporters of the club in their aim of exploring and promoting the idea of community ownership if the current owner decides to sell and for them to pursue their monthly dialogue with the club management in the running of the club as it effects the stake that the supporters has in the club by way of being a stakeholder rather than a shareholder.

Read more: http://thelondonlabia.proboards.com/pos ... z55E7VwdAz

[chunkygull]

[Yorkieandy]

I may be thick, I probably am! (It’s my age) – but what exactly do the TUST hope to finally achieve in the long run?

It’s already been stated that they don’t want to buy the Club and run it, even if they were in a financial position to do that.
So, what do they really want to do?

I cannot see CO/GI accepting any “interference” or listening to them via a board rep or any other means – and let’s be honest, if any one of us owned the Club would we really want 'outsiders' trying to put their oar in and disrupt things? No, of course not.
I doubt if any owner of any business would take kindly to that, probably politely but firmly saying “It’s my business, my concern, my money so f-off”!

I’ve known Mike Thomas (and his wife) for years, he is an honest and reputable chap, but what does he want the TUST to achieve under his reign, and how far is he prepared to go with taking on CO/GI in any long running legal battle over ownership?

Mike .. over to you if you post here!

Be great if we could get some answers to this please lads and lasses as Tired Old Gull expresses concerns that i also have.

What IS the primary aim of the TUST. Personally i want the TUST to work AGAINST the owners and not WITH them which is what they are trying to do. Wtf is the point in trying to work WITH people who aren't interested in reciprocating other than releasing media friendly shite every time they feel a bit of pressure building? If the TUST cannot see the pacifying nature of these pointless empty statements and that there IS no working with the current owners and are still prepared to waste time trying then i'm a bit stumped tbh. I would like to see the TUST work towards putting pressure on a change of ownership because for some reason, unlike most other TUFC fans they still apparently feel that CO is suddenly going to change and start thinking about the good of the fans and the good of the club. That time wasted trying to reinvent the wheel would IMO be better spent campaigning for enough is enough. Get them all out.

I find the TUST approach all a bit PC and a bit wishy washy although i do appreciate that they think this is the best way to do things and it most probably is. I don't think that though.

The owners need to be pressured to leave (NOT TO CHANGE - THAT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!) and not be kowtowed to. That's the first point. The TUST need to gather as much support and finance as they can. That's the second point. Once (if) the owners leave then we can take it from there but IMO these two goals need to be clear and relentlessly chased.

It isn't possible or productive to work alongside CO unless you are in on his way of thinking. I would thought that by now that was obvious?

CO has come into Torquay to get a job done. He's doing that and it's up to others to try and not let that happen. He's a successful businessman, he's spied an opportunity and he isn't doing anything legally wrong so in that respect fair play to him. You can't blame him for that. It's what happens in business. The weak are vulnerable. If the opposition aren't capable of usurping him because, despite all their best efforts were unsuccessful then that's life. You hold your hands up and try and move on in a different direction. If the opposition aren't capable of usurping him because they aren't really opposing him and want to work WITH him then that's a bit sad.

This is my maybe skewed way of looking at the situation and i would presume that most would feel that maintaining an 'at best' working relationship with the owners would make things easier and the best way to do this i by trying to be nice and offering olive branches every 5 minutes. I can understand this as it seems to be how neurotypical people think. More a you scratch my back sort of scenario. I'm on the autistic spectrum therefore my rigid, simpistic thinking is that the problem at Torquay are the owners so the solution is to get the owners to change or leave. It seems that despite all evidence that suggests that the owners won't change, the TUST are still pursuing this angle which is incorrect as it should now be obvious that they won't change so the next logical step is to try and get them to leave.

[Jerry]

What IS the primary aim of the TUST. Personally i want the TUST to work AGAINST the owners and not WITH them which is what they are trying to do. Wtf is the point in trying to work WITH people who aren't interested in reciprocating other than releasing media friendly shite every time they feel a bit of pressure building? If the TUST cannot see the pacifying nature of these pointless empty statements and that there IS no working with the current owners and are still prepared to waste time trying then i'm a bit stumped tbh. I would like to see the TUST work towards putting pressure on a change of ownership because for some reason, unlike most other TUFC fans they still apparently feel that CO is suddenly going to change and start thinking about the good of the fans and the good of the club. That time wasted trying to reinvent the wheel would IMO be better spent campaigning for enough is enough. Get them all out.

As I previously posted Andy, TUST is a democratic organization. The board do what the membership wants them to do. If you want them to change their approach then you should propose this option be brought up at next weeks meeting and the members can then vote on it.

[Yorkieandy]

So the membership actually WANTS the TUST to work with the owners despite everything and not to try and campaign for them to leave?!

Might have to have rethink on everything then. Apologies to the TUST for my misinformed comments and thanks to Jerry. I find this staggering then.

I can't understand other human beings.

[Tired Old Gull]

With respect; a lot of you on here don't really have a grasp of what you are posting about. Let me explain.........

I hope you are not referring to me there Merse - I know exactly what I am posting about - and Yorkieandy, who also seems very knowledgeable on this issue, seems also to understand where I am coming from; and you explained nothing in your post that I wasn't aware of before!

It's all well and good promoting the TUST with every breath - but until people are crystal clear what their prime objectives are .. then there will always be doubts. Just to say they plan to save TUFC is not really viable, as you obviously know.

As I said - CO/GI own TUFC and there is no way he/they are going to listen to or be influenced by outsiders (TUST board) who have no financial input to the Club. They can be as vocal as they like, but HE is the man in the top chair and HE will make all the decisions, regardless of the noise going on below him.
The TUST need to have a very clear objective - and I don't feel that simply enrolling people and issuing statements saying they plan to save TUFC is really viable and will not sway CO/GI one inch.
With regards to them influencing TBC - we all know that in this current financial strain that money talks (ask the Herald Express!) - and if CO/GI talk £££'s to the Council, they will listen, regardless of what they publicly pronounce and regardless of the history of GI.

I'm not knocking the TUST in any way - I just cannot see what they hope to achieve, and again ask Mike/Michel Thomas to explain it in layman's terms.

[Yorkieandy]

Tired Old Gull.

To put the record straight. I am probably the least knowledgeable person on here about the TUST!

I just try and see common sense and to me, the owners aren't changing so why are fans even trying? It's a total waste of time.

The fans should be campaigning with the TUST to get the owners out as i thought that's what everyone bloody wanted!!!! I just can't get my head aroud all this confusion.

Do we want CO out or not?!! FGS!! Make your minds up!

[Jerry]

So the membership actually WANTS the TUST to work with the owners despite everything and not to try and campaign for them to leave?!

Might have to have rethink on everything then. Apologies to the TUST for my misinformed comments and thanks to Jerry. I find this staggering then.

I can't understand other human beings.

Human beings or posts apparently

The whole point of next weeks meeting is to decide how the membership want the TUST board to proceed. Nothing has been decided yet. Once again I urge you to get in touch with them and let them know how you want them to deal with the situation going forward. You can't complain about what they do if you don't let them know how you want them to behave.

[Yorkieandy]

No point Jerry. Seems i'm in the minority again. A familiar theme. I take your point about misreading the posts though and i understand a bit more now what you are saying about the TUST and the way it works so thanks. Why is politics so messy?

[merse btpir]

I hope you are not referring to me there Merse - I know exactly what I am posting about - and Yorkieandy, who also seems very knowledgeable on this issue, seems also to understand where I am coming from; and you explained nothing in your post that I wasn't aware of before!

I'm not 'promoting the trust with every breath'; I am outlining the legal and binding parameters in which they are allowed to operate.......

Pushing for confrontation and wanting the trust to push the owners out ~ as if they would with all that capital invested in the club now ~ is not only unrealistic but suicidal too. The trust is in no way capable of running the club even on a day to day basis either today or even at the end of a seamless change of ownership were it even feasible under current law as I am tired of explaining.

The only realistic hope of attaining 'control' of the club is to pursue Commnity ownership ~ either of the football club, the ground or the two combined. I outlined months ago how the Chelsea Pitch Owners Association secured the long term leasehold of Stamford Bridge in conjuncion with private equity and the same at Fratton Park where the Pompey Trust took control of Fratton Park ~ to me; this is the only sane and realistic long term aim to go for and in order to successfully achieve anything along those models the football club needs to be kept running in the meantime.

'Pushing the owners out' and adopting a hostile position in opposition to them will not achieve that. It really is getting silly on here now with Andy's simplistic and frankly impractical 'solutions' ~ no help whatsoever!

[Yorkieandy]

Fine. Enjoy what will remain of the football club and enjoy life under CO. Clearly the fans want different things to what i do so there's no point. Obviously you know how to achieve the best outcome so best of luck. You reap what you sow as you like to say.

Most certainly is true.

Best of luck to the TUST also. You'll need lots of it.

CO wins. Congratulations Clarke. You came, you saw, you conquered whilst those who know best still bicker about which strategy to take to save the club.

No help? Well you got that right.

[Tired Old Gull]

I don't think you'll find me 'promoting' confrontation in any of my posts - nor did I accuse you of 'promoting' the Trust with every breath Merse!

It would appear that Yorkieandy and myself are in the tiny minority on here who cannot grasp what the TUST are trying to promote, so be it then I can accept that.
But if Community Ownership is their main objective then surely that involves the Community, who need to be aware of their objective very clearly - and if at least two of us on here are not, then they are not doing what they have set out to do!
Surely if the Community (via the TUST) were to try and take over from CO/GI a lot of funds would need to be raised? I can't see him/them offloading TUFC for a song, so some big members of the Community would be needed to come on board and pay a lot more than the current membership subscription.

Certainly I don't see how the TUST board can work with CO/GI - unless the majority of their members want the same thing as he/they do .. in which case why is everyone objecting?