Weston-super-Mare v Torquay Tues 25th Feb 7:45pm

[Dave]

A really poor assessment of Hamon

BigDave is troll, with either, an anti Wotton, or TUST or Bryn agenda , maybe even all three, best ignored, starve a troll. As for Hamon, in my view he is a good NLS keeper but not a no1 in the league above, Hamon has saved us more points this season than he's cost us, but the likes of BigDave probabaly doesn't even go, you can spot them a mile off.

[Dave]

Booked the week off work to coincide with this game so made the short trip the Weston. The view from the terracing behind the goal was very limited where we were housed, so difficult to get an absolute view point on every aspect of what went on.

The pitch was bobbly, but was the case for both sides, there was a number of occasions where it looked like a miss-control when in fact the ball had bounced off a divet at a strange angle, or bounced upwards sharply. I believe there's player tiredness, but it isn't the case of physical tiredness, when a player is physically fit, well their physically fit aren't they.

We know there's been illness in the camp, that can result in a player not being able to commit fully for a whole game, there's also mental tiredness, some times a player just needs a game on the bench we've got small squad hampered by injuries, there's also a few with tight muscles who will fade late in games, they know they're potentially one sprint away from a tear and 4-6 weeks out, again all roads lead back to a small squad.

Having said all of that nothing can excuse the lack of effort and fight in that first half, thought WSM were physical got at us, we turned into bambi on ice in the face of it, stood off them far too much, not sure Threlkeld is the right captain, fair play to Hayfield who was the only getting at our players trying to step things up.

Second half we did get much closer to WSM, and got back into the game, only to withdraw right back into our shell, for all the world it looked like we'd lose this late on again, weirdly though once palmer came on as a makeshift centre forward, we seemed to once again get a foothold back in the game, and nearly won it at the death.

Said it many times I really like Mussa, but he's luxury when you've limited funds and a small squad that we just can't afford, just don't see enough of what this lad is capable of, Zanzala looks like he could add something on that performance.

Worth Noting, the travelling fans last night prior to and after the game are 100% behind Wotton.

[culmstockgull]

Agree, ridiculous post. He's not the best we've ever had but far from the worst. Without him our losses column would be a lot higher.
His claiming of crosses could be better but not even sure I agree that was his to claim last night. Difficult when there's a lot of the bodies in there and we seemed to have 3 defenders who tried to deal with it and failed

If you look at our goals conceded in the league it is one a game and if remember rightly a few of those would not have been saved by having three goalkeepers so logic dictates he is by no means the worst in this league.. My arguement and it is confirmed by your comments is that he does not control his six yard box and leaving multiple defenders getting in each others way trying to clear balls which are his by right, Mcdonald was no where near hamon's size and statue but tried to make the six yard area his own, not always successfully, but defenders knew they could mainly concentrate on marking attackers as opposed to covering for the keeper who was glued to his line.

[westbaygull]

Well, I'm sorry not sorry to admit BigDave's post made me chuckle. Hopefully that doesn't make me a troll

[Southampton Gull]

BigDave is troll, with either, an anti Wotton, or TUST or Bryn agenda , maybe even all three, best ignored, starve a troll. As for Hamon, in my view he is a good NLS keeper but not a no1 in the league above, Hamon has saved us more points this season than he's cost us, but the likes of BigDave probabaly doesn't even go, you can spot them a mile off.

Does that mean you think I have an agenda too? Am I anti the TUST? AM I against the Bryn consortium? I've criticised Wotton so does that make me a troll? Hamon isn't a good NLS keeper, he's bang average.

I want all of the above to do well and succeed but it doesn't make them immune to criticism. Because I tried to deflect the vitriol of the last couple of seasons onto the previous ownership I'm guilty of criticising Wotton as some point scoring objective? Now you've fallen into the age old trap of 'because I go my opinion is more valid than his' Thought you were better than that. I also thought you were a better judge of keepers......

[Green Rory]

Never mind guys, four of us from Plymouth will be there for the Bath game. Genuine Torquay, Liverpool, Norwich and Argyle fans will be there supporting Torquay as we try to do a few times each season. Torquay United just have to get out of this league asap... Embarrassing really.

[Dave]

Does that mean you think I have an agenda too? Am I anti the TUST? AM I against the Bryn consortium? I've criticised Wotton so does that make me a troll? Hamon isn't a good NLS keeper, he's bang average.

I want all of the above to do well and succeed but it doesn't make them immune to criticism. Because I tried to deflect the vitriol of the last couple of seasons onto the previous ownership I'm guilty of criticising Wotton as some point scoring objective? Now you've fallen into the age old trap of 'because I go my opinion is more valid than his' Thought you were better than that. I also thought you were a better judge of keepers......

We've known each other for a long time, I have no wish to fall out with you, judging by your reaction and that of Westbay, BigDave is known to you both, maybe even known to me as well.

However when you make ground less statements suggesting PW is here for an easy ride, and Hamon is a signed his mate from Truro, you going to leave yourself wide open to harsh criticism from other users, it's nature on public forums,however right wrong or over the top that might be.

The pressure and weight of expectations here at TUFC much greater than it'll ever be at at Truro, the time frame to deliver success a darn sight shorter regardless of any backing PW would have got at Truro, PW isn't getting an easy ride here at all, PW knows the faith being shown to him from the fans won't last forever also.

But he's barely 7 months into his tenure, to soon for some criticism to be justified, my message will continue to be time and patience, but that is for the time being only.

Bryn are barely 7 months in also, the improvements made are there for all to see, but they were left with a huge pile of mess from the previous ownership, so much to do, patience required on that front.

Agreed, no one is immune to criticism, the opinion of a fan who attends regularly isn't more valuable, but the fan who does attend regularly, is better placed to form a more full opinion, than someone who watches short videos and odd live stream.

I know your background in football, you know mine, I've never claimed to be an expert, amongst numerous coaching qualifications, I hold a very basic keeper coaching award, as a former semi pro keeper you know a lot more than I, on the importance getting set, shifting weight, anticipating, footwork etc.

I've stood behind Hamon's goal at away games and heard his communication with the defence, it isn't lacking, a prime example came against Hemel Hempstead, when Hamon on his knees got up and across his goal to stop a point blank shot, not the first time or the last we've seen that, time and time again I see him get up take ball at the highest point with his elbows locked in, and Hamon's wrists a lot stronger than Westons keeper that's for sure.

Hamon in my humble opinion can be slow of his line sometimes, has an odd fumble, and silly mistake, is he better than our current level, no, but suggest he's not a more than capable keeper at this level, plain wrong.

Being SW based it didn't blow a huge hole in the budget getting him here.

I never expected promotion this season, always thought it more likely next season, so I'm hoping, but at ease with situation, I can't however control what others feel, can only hope my stick with it message hits home, which I'm certain it will.

[westbaygull]

Dave, I don't know BigDave, I know very few on here these days, but I did actually find his post really amusing.
I am not anti-anyone, I have to confess that I haven't warmed to PW at all which is why I was interested in the thoughts of others, but that doesn't mean that I wish him to fail, far from it.
It saddens me that if a poster goes against what others say, they are labelled a troll, it is a forum for opinion and no one opinion is 100% correct (well, perhaps mine )
This has always been an inclusive place and I have seen quite a few posters getting snippy responses. I don't like that. Nobody should be shot down for voicing what they think.
For what it's worth, I do think we should be more than disappointed if we don't get promoted, with the backing of Bryn and the feel good factor boosting the attendances, we should be flying high - if we don't, I think it will be more difficult next season.
Again, just my opinion. Either way, the Club will still get my support.

[Southampton Gull]

We've known each other for a long time, I have no wish to fall out with you, judging by your reaction and that of Westbay, BigDave is known to you both, maybe even known to me as well.

However when you make ground less statements suggesting PW is here for an easy ride, and Hamon is a signed his mate from Truro, you going to leave yourself wide open to harsh criticism from other users, it's nature on public forums,however right wrong or over the top that might be.

The pressure and weight of expectations here at TUFC much greater than it'll ever be at at Truro, the time frame to deliver success a darn sight shorter regardless of any backing PW would have got at Truro, PW isn't getting an easy ride here at all, PW knows the faith being shown to him from the fans won't last forever also.

But he's barely 7 months into his tenure, to soon for some criticism to be justified, my message will continue to be time and patience, but that is for the time being only.

Bryn are barely 7 months in also, the improvements made are there for all to see, but they were left with a huge pile of mess from the previous ownership, so much to do, patience required on that front.

Agreed, no one is immune to criticism, the opinion of a fan who attends regularly isn't more valuable, but the fan who does attend regularly, is better placed to form a more full opinion, than someone who watches short videos and odd live stream.

I know your background in football, you know mine, I've never claimed to be an expert, amongst numerous coaching qualifications, I hold a very basic keeper coaching award, as a former semi pro keeper you know a lot more than I, on the importance getting set, shifting weight, anticipating, footwork etc.

I've stood behind Hamon's goal at away games and heard his communication with the defence, it isn't lacking, a prime example came against Hemel Hempstead, when Hamon on his knees got up and across his goal to stop a point blank shot, not the first time or the last we've seen that, time and time again I see him get up take ball at the highest point with his elbows locked in, and Hamon's wrists a lot stronger than Westons keeper that's for sure.

Hamon in my humble opinion can be slow of his line sometimes, has an odd fumble, and silly mistake, is he better than our current level, no, but suggest he's not a more than capable keeper at this level, plain wrong.

Being SW based it didn't blow a huge hole in the budget getting him here.

I never expected promotion this season, always thought it more likely next season, so I'm hoping, but at ease with situation, I can't however control what others feel, can only hope my stick with it message hits home, which I'm certain it will.

I can assure you I also don't know who BigDave is although his username is amusing to me as it's what I've long been called in the Security game.

My criticism of Wotton is purely what I've mentioned in that he's never taken the blame for certain performances when it's been blatantly obvious that his selection/tactics have been at fault on the odd occasion. He's very quick to blame the players and anyone and anything else and I find that irritating and so posted my thoughts. It doesn't mean I'm hankering after Johnson or wanting him sacked, I desperately want him to succeed but I still find him irritating in a similar fashion to Buckle. That's the crux of it. As for Hamon I've just commented on what I've seen, he's an average NLS keeper and being honest, how many times have you seen better keepers playing for the opposition? Sure, the manager likes him and that's fine by me but he's a shot stopping line keeper who is incapable of commanding his box, there are plenty of keepers in our division who can and do. If and when we go up he'd make a decent enough backup keeper but would definitely get found out if he was a regular starter.

That's it, no agenda, just my opinion and I don't expect it to be popular, my opinions rarely are but I'll always express them.

You and others alluded to my defence of our previous manager which was done purely in the context of the ownership should have been more deserving of the vicious criticism that he got. I was onto Osborne and his cronies before they even got hold of the club and voiced it at every opportunity despite threats made against me and not once did I let up on that. Now we have the Bryn takeover and I couldn't be happier about it. I've certainly got no axe to grind with them or TUST. It's actually nice to no longer have any concerns over the club's future and to be able to just nit pick, I'm certainly not missing anything from the previous regime.

Next beer is on you

[BigDave]

If I am a troll does that make Wotton and Hamon GOATs or Billy-goats gruff? Opinions differ but facts don't and the facts are that Wotton and Hamon were both at Truro last season and are now both at Torquay: the inference from that must be that Wotton rates Hamon. Doubtless Hamon has saved some goals as he is a capable shot stopper at this level but his overall goalkeeping skills are inadequate and I would rather see him do the mundane goalkeeping skills well rather than watching him leaping like a salmon to make spectacular saves (often because he was actually out of position.) Gordon Banks rates high on the list of greatest England goalkeepers because of his reliability and lack of mistakes but as a result of that it is only the save from Pele that is actually memorable. Neville Southall was in the twilight of his career when he played for Torquay but his ability and experience was clear to see and there have been others like Olejnik who have been better than the level at which Torquay were playing. Hamon is not in that category and his lack of authority in the box coupled with his penchant for blaming his defenders after conceding a goal for which he should bear some culpability surely cannot instil confidence in his defence. The blame attribution has possibly been acquired from Wotton who seems to be singing "It Ain't Me Babe" after every poor performance - maybe it's an attribute that is manifest south of the Tamar. Against the pre-season expectations of many fans Torquay are a poor team flirting with the play-off places in a very poor league but is this because of or despite the manager and his goalkeeper?

[Dave]

Next beer is on you

Deal, just get your arse down to Plaimoor

[Taelee73]

To be fair, Wotton in saying “we’ve been poor” has accepted some blame for his team’s performance, it’s his selection and his tactics. I watch the Dorking “Bunch of amateurs” YouTube videos and on occasion their manager does hold his hand up and say he made a mistake with tactics/substitutions etc, but he normally says it to the players themselves, but by and large he calls out the individual mistakes made by players, even during the official post match interviews. As far as I know Wotton hasn’t blamed a player by name, only a general poor showing by the team. How many managers would blame themselves ? They are confidence based people, if they start admitting mistakes then doubt may creep in and confidence in them from fans, owners and especially players will drop.

Wotton spends a large amount of time during games organising the players, it is doubly harder as we don’t have a reserve team to play 11 v 11 matches and help iron out problems. It must be very frustrating to see players making poor decisions during matches.

Johnson from what I remember never once acknowledged blame on himself, the opposite as it was everyone including us the supporters who were to blame. I’ll also not forget him crowing that his salary stayed the same with relegation when everyone else’s was reduced. He ended up being far more loathsome than any manager I’ve known at Plainmoor.

I like Wotton tbh, he’s passionate and clearly cares about the team and its individuals. He knew the budget and left Truro knowing they had stability, a promising side and a new stadium, I don’t know the difference in salary. Maybe huge or maybe similar. I feel he also has another 12 months before we should start questioning results/performances too harshly, obviously a poor start next season, especially if in NLS then pressure will mount quickly.

Anyhow another massive game on Saturday, I’m assuming no freebie tickets, so 3000+ would be great. A win and we’re still in with a chance of going up the easy way, a defeat and things look bleaker.

[gullsgullsgulls]

To be fair, Wotton in saying “we’ve been poor” has accepted some blame for his team’s performance, it’s his selection and his tactics. I watch the Dorking “Bunch of amateurs” YouTube videos and on occasion their manager does hold his hand up and say he made a mistake with tactics/substitutions etc, but he normally says it to the players themselves, but by and large he calls out the individual mistakes made by players, even during the official post match interviews. As far as I know Wotton hasn’t blamed a player by name, only a general poor showing by the team. How many managers would blame themselves ? They are confidence based people, if they start admitting mistakes then doubt may creep in and confidence in them from fans, owners and especially players will drop.

Wotton spends a large amount of time during games organising the players, it is doubly harder as we don’t have a reserve team to play 11 v 11 matches and help iron out problems. It must be very frustrating to see players making poor decisions during matches.

Johnson from what I remember never once acknowledged blame on himself, the opposite as it was everyone including us the supporters who were to blame. I’ll also not forget him crowing that his salary stayed the same with relegation when everyone else’s was reduced. He ended up being far more loathsome than any manager I’ve known at Plainmoor.

I like Wotton tbh, he’s passionate and clearly cares about the team and its individuals. He knew the budget and left Truro knowing they had stability, a promising side and a new stadium, I don’t know the difference in salary. Maybe huge or maybe similar. I feel he also has another 12 months before we should start questioning results/performances too harshly, obviously a poor start next season, especially if in NLS then pressure will mount quickly.

Anyhow another massive game on Saturday, I’m assuming no freebie tickets, so 3000+ would be great. A win and we’re still in with a chance of going up the easy way, a defeat and things look bleaker.

Perfectly said.

[Dave]

That's an Excellent post from Taelee73, captured my own thoughts and put them across in perhaps a more intelligent way than me, certainly in a more grown up fashion than I.

Think there are some amongst our support that just can't accept there are clubs who have been better run than us, over the course of a number of years, there are others despite our own average gate levels who are more 'cash rich' than us, that doesn't make them a bigger club than us, but can finance levels of debt that we can't.

Whether we like it or not currently TUFC is an NLS club, it's not a level, I, or any of us want to remain at but for the time being we are, what we are, many players will drop to the NLP, that wont drop to our level, unless location suits or a good sized contract are offered.

So to get that all round goalkeeper BigDave hankers after will cost money, and at what consequence, at the loss of Cooke, Dreyer ? Because the wage bill is now too high.

I will try to be more adult here, For a start it's opinions nothing on this thread is fact, what none of us know, including me, SG, BigDave is what instruction is given to Hamon. How do we know PW hasn't told Hamon to deal with in swinging balls into the goal as you'd expect a keeper to do, but leave everything else for the defence to deal with, as our very own Kenny Vesey told me at a coaching session a while back, young managers coming into the game our shifting their thought process to defenders dealing with crosses, set pieces, preferring keepers to say on their lines.

To accuse Hamon of blaming defenders for goals he's conceded is perhaps as childish as some of what I've posted over the last couple of days. Lets focus on Hornchurch home, was it Hamon's fault that such a static and lazy challenge resulted in the award of a penalty , which Hamon dually saved, was it Hamon's fault Hornchurch carved us open time and time again, Hamon would make three top class saves in that game, and strangely enough for keeper accused of being below par, on everything but shot stopping, got out claiming numerous high balls into the box, and punching others away from danger.

My advice here is stop looking for sticks to beat people with, we are 34 games into the season, and have conceded 34 goals goals @ 1 goal per game, there are only three teams in the entire division who've conceded less than us, Boreham Wood, Truro, and on 29 goals conceded just 5 less than us Maidstone with the best defensive record.

This doesn't point towards us having a below standard goalkeeper who has saved the defenders blushes as many times as the other way around, this is where the opinion of fans who have been the majority of games is more complete than someone who hasn't . If you want to to find a potential reason for promotion being far from certain, look at the other end of the pitch, where our chances to goals scored conversion rate is too low, Dorking are top because they've scored 70 goals 19 ahead of us, if we'd scored that many this league would already be won by us.

Having been at Weston Tuesday and seeing the cameo performance of Zanzala he may, note I said may just be the key that could open a few more doors, here's hoping.

[Southampton Gull]

Just to clarify, I'm not beating anyone with a stick, just posting my observations on guess what? A platform for expression of opinions

As for points raised above, we've all seen and commented on the fact that we've got a good defence when at full strength and I include Hamon in that. Sure some of the players have limitations and that's what I'm commenting on with reference to our keeper. Ironically his old club have a better defensive record than we do but that could of course be a coincidence. My observation that he's a shot stopping line keeper will not be dictated by the way a manager asks him to play. Way back when I played myself I had different requests from different managers but ultimately during a game your natural way of playing will show itself no matter what you've been told to do. That being the case I'm happy to stand by my assessment but one thing that hasn't been raised is that the squad do have a togetherness and Hamon is at the centre of that. The manager could protect that by occasionally taking the flak, saying 'We've been poor' isn't doing that no matter how Talee tries to spin it. Again I stand by my assessment of the manager who is showing the same characteristics he did as a player, that didn't always make him popular. I have that from a close friend who played with him.

All of that said, if we're successful under him my opinion and others won't matter a jot. If it's not this season or even the next it won't alter my opinion in not wanting him replaced. As much as I'd love promotion it's not something that will have me calling for his head if it isn't achieved. It's not like he's eating all the crisps in Torbay unlike a previous club official.
While we sit and watch how this ride pans out we'll continue to share opinions and argue the merits of them just as we always have done on here. Come game time we all want the same thing........