Confidence in Martin Rice???

Arelbee · Post by **Arelbee** » 02 Dec 2014, 22:21

Hi all

Due to international travel (work not leisure!) I have got to very few games over the last two seasons having previously been a season ticket holder. However, based on previous knowledge I am surprised to see Martin Rice as No1. I accept money is clearly tight but trying to develop a successful team with an obviously inadequate keeper is rank mis management in my opinion.

I appreciate he may have surpassed expectation last season but

1. This was coming from a (presumably) low expectation, and
2. In a poor side it is, ironically easier to look reasonable in goal as you get more shots to save and you are judged relative to the poor performers around you.

In prior years that Rice was on the books, it was a disaster if Rice was deputising because then, as now, his decision making was poor, his command of the box was erratic and his authority at set pieces was weak.

I can't comment too much on this season other than televised games and you tube highlights but clearly he has been directly responsible for a number of goals and I have no doubt indirectly responsible due to a lack of faith the team have in him.

Regardless of the above, the primary reason for writing this is what I witnessed on Saturday watching just my second game of the season. Twice in the second half when lining up the wall for free kicks, I witnessed, from The Bench, Hargreaves overruling him on the positioning of the wall as Rice was getting no response from his players. To be fair to the keeper, his confidence must be shot if this is happening but for me is a clear indication that his boss does not believe in him. It would seem Seabright is not favoured either.

Therefore, if we are to make only one more signing all season, make it a competent keeper, spend the necessary money and do it as quickly as is allowable. We will not be promoted with at best, a below average keeper.

I appreciate all players do and will continue to make mistakes, but the keeper holds a unique and critical key to a team's success.

I feel really sorry for the lad - he is clearly a 100%er and cares for TUFC, probably as much as any player, but we have to be honest to our club and to him.

I think Hargreaves is naive at times and has a lot to learn, but does have the potential to improve and is building a team in that image. But I am afraid that Rice will not improve from his current performance level and until this is addressed we will remain outside the play off places. I believe the great early season run owed much to the quality of the opposition, and we are now being properly tested.

I wish I didn't love this little club so much!

arcadia · Post by **arcadia** » 02 Dec 2014, 22:43

Arelbee wrote:Hi all

Due to international travel (work not leisure!) I have got to very few games over the last two seasons having previously been a season ticket holder. However, based on previous knowledge I am surprised to see Martin Rice as No1. I accept money is clearly tight but trying to develop a successful team with an obviously inadequate keeper is rank mis management in my opinion.

I appreciate he may have surpassed expectation last season but

1. This was coming from a (presumably) low expectation, and
2. In a poor side it is, ironically easier to look reasonable in goal as you get more shots to save and you are judged relative to the poor performers around you.

In prior years that Rice was on the books, it was a disaster if Rice was deputising because then, as now, his decision making was poor, his command of the box was erratic and his authority at set pieces was weak.

I can't comment too much on this season other than televised games and you tube highlights but clearly he has been directly responsible for a number of goals and I have no doubt indirectly responsible due to a lack of faith the team have in him.

Regardless of the above, the primary reason for writing this is what I witnessed on Saturday watching just my second game of the season. Twice in the second half when lining up the wall for free kicks, I witnessed, from The Bench, Hargreaves overruling him on the positioning of the wall as Rice was getting no response from his players. To be fair to the keeper, his confidence must be shot if this is happening but for me is a clear indication that his boss does not believe in him. It would seem Seabright is not favoured either.

Therefore, if we are to make only one more signing all season, make it a competent keeper, spend the necessary money and do it as quickly as is allowable. We will not be promoted with at best, a below average keeper.

I appreciate all players do and will continue to make mistakes, but the keeper holds a unique and critical key to a team's success.

I feel really sorry for the lad - he is clearly a 100%er and cares for TUFC, probably as much as any player, but we have to be honest to our club and to him.

I think Hargreaves is naive at times and has a lot to learn, but does have the potential to improve and is building a team in that image. But I am afraid that Rice will not improve from his current performance level and until this is addressed we will remain outside the play off places. I believe the great early season run owed much to the quality of the opposition, and we are now being properly tested.

I wish I didn't love this little club so much!

YOU are only saying what we've all said but money dictates and Hargreaves has gambled and it has back fired. If we had recovered after our first defeat it might be different but now it's gone past a joke.

Post by **Dave** » 02 Dec 2014, 23:28

Said for weeks now I feel sorry for Martin Rice, we've seen some tragic defending over the last few weeks, we've some players get away completely free from blame by us fans, while Ricey is getting hung out to dry, not saying Ricey hasn't played his part in some of these goals, because he has, but it's not fully his fault.

Chris Hargreaves strikes me as a manager so intent on pleasing us fans that he'll probably bow to pressure and put Seabright in ( who's not the answer) Seabright will stop on his line and probably have the planted past him from a 5 yard free header just like Ricey has, but somewhere in the game will make a save just like Ricey has, and us fickle fans will say, there you go CH Seabright should have been playing all along , it's just the way it is, when your face doesn't fit.

Post by **Gulliball** » 02 Dec 2014, 23:39

He's been an ideal number two, with his wages and attitude, and when asked to step in last season when Poke got injured he exceeded expectations.

This season he is the number one, and consequently expectations are far, far higher. He has to perform every week, and I think that's too much for him. He does not control his area enough, and is too error prone, to play every week. He's played over 20 games so far this season and has made mistakes in quite a number of them, and goalkeeper's mistakes get punished more than any other position which is making it even worse.

If Ives can hold down the left back position, then a goalkeeper is really the only position we need to bring someone else in. We are not that far off the play-offs, but we are not going to get that run of a few wins back to back that we need if we're throwing goals away at the rate we currently are.

We have played 23 games, so have a good guide as to how our season will go in the second half. With a solid keeper, we stand a chance of the play-offs. Without one, we'll probably finish where we are now in 8th-12th.

We are going to have to get very lucky with a loanee or non-contract though as it seems we are totally skint. If Young goes then we lose all our attacking play, and he is the only saleable asset we have.

kevgull · Post by **kevgull** » 03 Dec 2014, 08:15

I don't blame Rice, CH gave him the No1 goalie shirt and then signed a rookie in Seabright. CH will know this of course and will be trying to find ways of strengthening no doubt.

If I could, I would offload (loan out) Benyon,Harding,Tonge and Seabright as soon as and then bring in a decent keeper in January.

or

Get a keeper in now, assuming we are selling Young in the January transfer window.

Neal · Post by **Neal** » 03 Dec 2014, 08:42

forevertufc wrote:Said for weeks now I feel sorry for Martin Rice, we've seen some tragic defending over the last few weeks, we've some players get away completely free from blame by us fans, while Ricey is getting hung out to dry, not saying Ricey hasn't played his part in some of these goals, because he has, but it's not fully his fault..

Exactly my opinion.

The defence has mostly been very good as it has come under a lot of pressure this season. Reason, our midfield lacks an enforcer, a tough tackler, a character who gets stuck in when things in games start to go against you (and there always times in every game like that). our midfield gives up possession too easily and therefore puts more pressure on the defence. The thing is that individually our midfield players (ones in the team) are good, but they are all a bit the same.

on yesterdays game, I don't hear much about the 4 corners we gave away in injury time (nothing to do with Rice). The forwards missing some relatively easy chances, they don't get hammered!

Of course we would all like to see a better goalkeeper! But you decide to get into more debt and get a decent keeper, what happens if results don't improve. Ah, we need a new midfielder now, and while your at it an attacker who has a better % than what we got. Football fans are never happy. I tell you what, I have a solution: Sell Luke to Buckle, and then get in a decent goalkeeper, will you support CH if he did that?

brucie · Post by **brucie** » 03 Dec 2014, 09:10

Neal you are as bad as last nights commentators. Why on earth do you think that Young will go to Cheltenham, it is absurd.
Its nonsensical to just put it down to supporters not being happy. This league is poor. Thats why a part time mickey mouse outfit like Dover managed by a schoolteacher can go god knows how many games unbeaten.
Rice has cost us 15 points this season. He actually did ok at the end of last season and the start of this.
Take the Woking home game (the last Torquay match that I have watched this season) - when they were on top in the first half we kept a clean sheet because Macdonald and Downes were constantly heading balls out of our six yard box whilst Rice was stood transfixed on his line.
Such a glaring weakness was always going to raise its head sooner or later.
Rice has never recovered from throwing away (literally) our unbeaten record at Telford. We scored three goals and lost because Rice made mistake after mistake. Whilst his confidence is shot to pieces the glaring weakness in his game (cannot deal with high balls into his six yard box) cannot be coached out of him because he simply isn't good enough.
Hargreaves has tried his other goalkeeper who patently obviously isn't good enough either - if he was do you think Rice would be in the team.
No doubt the issue is that we cannot offload either keeper because there won't be alot of call for error strewn keepers (even in the Western league)
This is all Hargreaves fault though - he gambled on saving money on the keeper and its blown up in his face bigtime.
Every other team has us sussed now and have done since the Telford game - Load the ball in towards our keeper and you will get some joy. And it will get worse as every team that we play will employ the same tactic and get some success from it.

tommyg · Post by **tommyg** » 03 Dec 2014, 09:49

You have to ask why Seabright was signed in the summer. I know he's young but we don't have a budget for players who aren't ready to play in the first team immediately - and evidently Seabright isn't at that stage if he can't get in the side ahead of an off-form Rice. Despite Rice's encouraging performances last season, he has always been a limited goalkeeper and having played with him and managed him, Hargreaves must have known his weaknesses. I would guess that Seabright was recommended to him by a former colleague at Bournemouth and perhaps Hargreaves genuinely thought he could perform at this level but it really does say something about Seabright if Hargreaves still thinks Rice is the better option.

There is obviously no budget to bring in another goalkeeper unless we find a generous parent club who are willing to loan us somebody for free, but even then it will likely be whipper-snapper with very little/no experience. Until we offload some of our high-earners (Harding and Benyon are now available for loan but unsurprisingly there have been no takers and I think the window has now closed), we're going to have to persist with what we've got and that will end up costing us any chance we have/had of finishing in the play-offs.

Neal · Post by **Neal** » 03 Dec 2014, 09:50

Oh Bruce, you completely missed the point.

"Neal you are as bad as last nights commentators. Why on earth do you think that Young will go to Cheltenham, it is absurd."

" I tell you what, I have a solution: Sell Luke to Buckle, and then get in a decent goalkeeper, will you support CH if he did that?" That was a dig, a windup, provocative statement. I DONT WHAT THAT! That's why I said, will you support CH if he did that? Because the answer will be NO, proving that what you really want is the club to spend more money IT DOESNT HAVE! And, not make difficult decisions like the above, which is what CH has to do every day, unlike supporters who can just moan moan moan on here every damn day. Its about choices, yes no doubt the board would sanction a new keeper, if we offload someone, and Luke is probably the only one we would get anything for.

As far as the commentary went, it was good! Yes they over egged Buckle way too much, but it was refreshing to hear some honest opinions for a change!

portugull · Post by **portugull** » 03 Dec 2014, 10:18

Gary Neville who had a long career with Man U wrote a brilliant article in last Saturdays Telegraph on the subject of goal keepers.

He makes a number of key points and although he is talking about the premier league everything he says applies equally whatever league your team plays. He comments that although he is hard on goal keepers he is also respectful of the fact that it is the toughest job of the lot. It is the position that can cause the most disruption to a club. If a keeper is having a bad time then it runs right the way through the club, the fans and even the opposition fans.

Neville states that in his view when a ball travels through the air into the box there has to be an excellent reason why it does not end up belonging to the keeper. He makes the point that the goalkeepers starting position is very important when the ball is crossed a great keeper anticipates where the crosser is aiming and is standing in the right position when it arrives. Neville argues that catching is always better than punching.

Good goal keepers ensure that every player knows his job for a set piece because they know a corner or a free kick is a moment of vulnerability. Leadership is key for good keepers and the defence respond accordingly. A top keeper can carry a team and hold their fate in his hands. A nervy goal keeper who flaps changes the whole dynamic inside a stadium and certainly in his own team.

As another poster has said you either have the ability or you don`t unfortunately as much as it hurts me to say our current number one is simply not good enough.

brucie · Post by **brucie** » 03 Dec 2014, 11:04

Spot on - he just isn't good enough.

Neal - If you actually enjoyed Richardsons commentary then you need to be comitted.

Modgull · Post by **Modgull** » 03 Dec 2014, 13:21

I don't agree with the comments about Rice being the reason for our current underwhelming position in the league.

What I do agree with is those who point the finger at the midfield and the way in most second halves we just abandon the midfield to the opposition whilst sitting deeper and deeper as matches reach their conclusion. We bring pressure on our defence leading to mistakes by ALL our defenders NOT just Rice!

I can't put my finger on just how many times this has happened this season but it sounds like Dover was a repeat of recent games against Eastleigh (where we did at least hang on and hit them on the break), Macclesfield (where we didn't do much in the first half either), Gateshead (throwing away a winning lead late on), Forest Green (again throwing away a lead) and Barnet (where we did hold on but only just!).

I think our reliance on out-and-out wingers in a strict 442 is hurting us when we run out of steam. Either they need to tuck in more to compress the midfield laterally or we need to move to a more flexible 451/433 formation to give more help to Young and Richards. In my view McQuilkin is not the answer and nor is McDonald - I am really hoping that Harding can get fit - he is the missing link IMHO.

SBP · Post by **SBP** » 03 Dec 2014, 13:48

Rice is not the only reason we appear to be conceding and losing points. However any of you that was present at the pre season friendly at Totnes & Dartington would know what a mistake he made there. Unfortunately he is just too inconsistent and he is causing uncertainty which is showing in our defence which is having a knock on effect in midfield. His distribution has been dreadful as well.
We then sit way to deep. Is this under managements instructions?? Downsey has definitely lost a yard of pace so is it due to him that we defend deeper??
Maybe if our attacking players took there chances we might kill a game off earlier. So, i think its many reasons why we find ourselves where we are.
But for me the alarm bells were ringing long ago about Martin Rice and CH saw this himself in pre-season.

friendlygas · Post by **friendlygas** » 03 Dec 2014, 13:53

Very interesting this debate on your goalkeeper especially in the light of our position last night where Mildenhall was injured before half time and we had to play the rest of the game with an outfield player in goal but managed a 0-0 draw.
I have drawn this from the Dover site.

"Slightly disappointed to have only got one point in the end despite not being at our best, particularly the 1ST half. The second half was nearly all Dover, their second goal being one of only a few efforts on target they had during the second 45 minutes.

Their keeper is coming in for some stick on their forum, but he pulled off a couple of cracking saves that earned them a share of the points imo. Their defending at corners was pretty poor, and we had enough of them, how many in the second half 8-9? That said the two goals we conceded were soft as well.

Fair play to the 50-70 odd Torquay fans, one helluva trip."

It is sometimes very easy to be critical of individual players rather than look at their game as a whole and to blame one person (generally the GK) for goals where defenders do not come out of them with any credit.

It is interesting that you seem to be indicating mainly that you should get a keeper in rather than giving your number2 (very inexperienced) an extended chance and I say this now because it will be very interesting what we do as our no 2 Will Puddy is out with a broken arm and Mildenhall could be out for a month or more which leaves us with our youth keeper Preston. Do we give him a chance or if we can,bring in an experienced keeper on emergency loan?.
Very interesting particularly as we play you twice in this period!! Really looking forward to our two games as we have a really good squad (probably the best squad in this League as we have four experienced players who can't even get in the match squad) whereas you seem to have a couple of real class quality players which is what we lack within our squad. You seem to score goals for fun at times but we struggle to score and the added interest that we are the two most recently relegated teams.

Gloomy Gull · Post by **Gloomy Gull** » 03 Dec 2014, 13:59

I have read all the rhetoric regarding Martin Rice and his inabilities/abilities as a goalkeeper.

If the constant leaking of goals is or isn't his fault. If the constant leaking of goals is or isn't the fault of the defenders/midfield.

How his confidence will be further damaged by criticism and we are Rice bashing unfairly.

Whilst I have sympathy for anyone under pressure and, perhaps feeling that his immediate colleagues are not performing and thereby making his performance appear worse...................he CHOSE to be a bloody keeper.

Surely, before he followed what he considered to be his strongest ability avenue to carve a career for himself, he would have understood the pro and cons of his choice. Therefore realising that he IS the last line of DEFENCE and any mistakes he may make will be highlighted more than any of his colleagues.

If, having considered all the options he still believed he was capable of performing well at that role - then why should he be protected from criticism when he is seen to be inadequate in his chosen profession? That surely goes with the job?

Do not make yourself a target if you are afraid of being shot at.

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