Torquay United Fans Forum

samuel wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 17:23 Thank you for the update Soupdragon. I am an optimistic fellow but I still can't work it out. If GI are a property company - what have they bought that is tangible - nothing, or do they own the stands, I can't remember. Why then would they put in 6 figures to something that is not turning a profit. No company, especially involved in property, would do this unless there was a game plan for the future. That game plan could only be formulated with positive indications from the land owners. It would be far to speculative to chuck £100,000 + on a scheme where the land owners have a duty to get the best price from the highest bidder. Torbay Council are not a private company or individual, they have to get the best price they can - by law.

I'm reading Wolf Hall at the moment, soon we will need a list of characters and their role like in the book to keep track of things. My personal opinion - something has been going on for ages between GI and the council, there would be too many imponderables for GI to get involved if there wasn't.

Some people out there not connected to GI know what the true situation is, whether they are ex-directors - forum members - councilors - club officials. They know what the score is. I don't. Does Dave Thomas, I don't know. I suspect after the North Ferriby game the bomb will be dropped.

Perhaps all will be revealed soon and we will breathe a sigh of relief, or we will be fuming and think 'of course -but we missed it or couldn't work it out'.

This is Hereford United with palm trees.

You are welcome.

My take on it was that they didn't really want TUFC, at least not really under those circs or at that time, but they didn't want to lose their £100k and they didn't want anyone else to have it.

Wolf Hall? Pah! Child's play! Try ' The Prince' by Machiavelli (quite funny), or - a favourite of mine - 'Art of War' by Sun Tzu ... useful for local politics!

Duncan wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 19:54 Can admin submit this proposal and get a response from the TUST ASAP please. We neeed to get this moving swiftly.

Cheers

Dunc

Why does the board's admin have to do it; why can't you? Or are you not a member?

samuel wrote: ↑18 Apr 2017, 23:22 I have been told that it is UNLIKELY the council will get rid of the freehold to GI (from an excellent source). However, although involved in property and planning myself, I have struggled to work out what the GI game plan is. I have juggled all the scenarios, spoken to several people in the know. In the offices at Plainmoor I have seen concept drawings of the new stadium, all purpose training pitch, hotel and retail outlets at The Willows. Looks lovely on paper but can only come to fruition as a result of a combination of shenanigans of immense proportions and deals so convoluted with so many uncertainties it would be a massive gamble. Assurances would have to be given by Torbay Council who are duty bound to get the highest price for their assets.

Problem with all of this is the secrecy and the fans being kept in the dark by the previous board, the mayor, the council - everyone. The confidentiality clause was an affront to the paying fan. Is there some missive - on any of the forums - where has someone actually worked out what would happen if GI actually did nothing. No investment in the team, just maintain the buildings, pay off the staff. Torquay United would fold. Then what, the freehold would be worth much less wouldn't it. The covenant would be diluted. I just can't work it out what they are up to. I would be interested to know whether Mr. Osbourne is a mason, didnt Mr. Oliver and his cohorts have a problem with this organisation a few years back - The Nolan Report recommendations not being adhered to. All this crap about whether meetings took place or not - officially or unofficially - between GI and the council is a smokescreen. 'What if' scenarios were discussed, probably in detail. As a fan of 55 years I just want someone to be open and truthful with me.

Incidentally, I believe the Torbay Tory MP is on side. With the election coming up - if he wasn't, I would give Mr. Sanders another go, a true fan.

Samuel, to answer (some of) your questions: Kevin Foster MP was at the game on Monday. Sent quite a few tweets to make sure we all knew, too. I think this answers my earlier query about 'the council' being at the game. If Foster's not a 'true' fan then he's going to do a good job of pretending to be over the coming eight weeks. No worries about him in that respect. But he has no say in this, it's a council level decision. Doesn't hurt that he will be on side, though.

I'd love to be able to say that the masons don't have a grip on elected members at the council. It's easy to check which of them are, they have to declare it in the Register of Members' Interests (also an interesting place to find out other little snippets) which is published online (tiresomely, not in a single document: you have to go via each councillor's page on the TBC website).

But the leader of the Tory group (as an aside, and quite apart from any other allowances and special reponsibility allowances they might get, leaders get paid £327 pa per member, so with 25-odd Tory members, that's over £8k a year to carry out a political role. Makes me spit) IS a mason. What would also be interesting is to find out whether Messrs Mowatt and Montgomery at the council/TDA are masons. I don't think staff - even senior staff - have to declare. I've no idea about Mr Osborne.

There WERE some issues about freemasonry at TBC a few years back. Laughably, the investigation into whether the masons were overstepping the mark at the council was carried out in secret. Of course, the investigation found no fault. Naturellement. Worse still, councillors were warned against speaking out in the future. You simply couldn't make it up.

It's interesting that you've seen some plans of a proposed development at the Willows. I recall that Jon on TFF said ages ago that one of the dangers of this whole scenario is that GI now has a vehicle onto which to load debt in the form of fees paid to consultants rather than having to fund their mad scheme proposals out of their own pockets. The club can't (won't) afford squad members for a few games to help avoid relegation, but can afford tens of thousands (at the very least) for development/consultancy plans. One has to assume that Mowatt/Montgomery have seen these.

I repeat what I have been told: Mayor Oliver has not met with GI to discuss this. GI's contact with the council has been through Mowatt and Montgomery. In order to be completely fair, the mayor also declined to meet with Michael of the Trust. To me, it certainly appears on the face of it that Mayor Oliver does not want whatever decision he makes to be open to any accusations of impropriety.

That is, of course, if there is ever any decision to be actually made about selling off Plainmoor. Still no formal proposals from GI. At least regarding Plainmoor.

Soupdragon wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 10:32 Now that IS surprising!

And I hear that, although Adrian said he would never stand again in a GE, he didn't rule out standing if there was a snap election (although we were led to believe by Mrs May that there wouldn't be one of these!). He's 50:50 about it, today, I'm told. So, who knows.

If he doesn't stand, other LibDem options might include long-serving, well-respected councillor Steve Darling; or Dennis Brewer who has stood for the LibDems in the past two mayoral elections.

torregull wrote: ↑19 Apr 2017, 10:13 but Adrian Sanders isn't standing

Now that IS surprising!

Jeez, you need huge amounts of time and money to run a GE campaign. Plus huge amounts of people: those leaflets don't deliver themselves. And neither do they write nor print themselves.

If you want to make a splash in the GE campaign to publicise our plight, then make a lot of noise about standing, then just don't. But then you run the risk of actually turning people against TUFC. And if you do stand, then remember there are all sorts of restrictions on what you can and cannot do (check out the Electoral Commission's website for a flavour).

Far better would be to keep on at those who are standing for their views on the whole TUFC saga. Convince them that it's a big deal for locals and get them to include statements supporting us in their leaflets. You'll reach a darn sight more people doing that.

SenorDingDong wrote: ↑18 Apr 2017, 15:31 How would their business plan even work in that case? - considering they've gone on record stating that they need the Plainmoor freehold to help fund their development at the Willows. Are you suggesting that the Council will sell them land elsewhere to develop in order to fund the new stadium? That seems rather strange given what we know about GI's modus operandi and the problem of getting any deal like that passed in Torbay.

Good grief, I'm not suggesting anything!

I'm not aware of GI ever stating that they need the freehold of Plainmoor to 'fund' anything ... isn't that what people have been claiming rather than GI stating it? My recollection of the Osborne interview was that he wanted the freehold of Plainmoor in order to justify - in a business sense - spending any money on the facilities there (my words: I can't possibly sit through that 35 minutes again just to repeat his precise phrasing ... wrist, rusty knife and all that). Happy to be proved wrong.

I repeat on this site the things I've heard so that, between us all on here, we can keep abreast of developments, ideas and possibilities, the better to hopefully protect our club.

There's no problem getting 'deals' passed in Torbay. Stranger things have happened. For example:

- Just how much did Brent pay for Oldway? That's right: nothing.
- The council 'lent' a million and a half quid to Sutton Seeds to save just 20 jobs. Nothing against Sutton Seeds or its employees, but, really?
- There have been millions of quid of council taxpayers' money wasted (imo) on 'job creation schemes' that have resulted in tens rather than the promised thousands of jobs - and they're mostly part time, mostly self-employed. Not real salaries that can keep and feed a family.

They're just a few bloody odd - to me - decisions that Torbay Council and their wholly-owned subsidiary, the Torbay 'Development' Agency have made in recent years, so who's to say they won't give GI the land at, say, the Willows, and then gift them a few million taxpayers' quid to build something on the promise of, oh, I don't know, say, 40 jobs.

And, just to keep everyone up to date, I understand that public land adjacent to South Devon College has been given to the college for development, and all easements and covenants on the land have been lifted. Another Bay example where covenants have meant nothing.

Southampton Gull wrote: ↑18 Apr 2017, 08:04 The Herald are definitely complicit in the deal for Plainmoor. Unfortunately my information is GI already have the deal done.

Ha ha! I don't believe the Herald could be complicit in anything in the Bay! Have you seen the rubbish on their website lately? "Sheep block road in Moretonhampstead." Or some such; who knows? It's generally either trivial or drivel. The circulation's dropping through the floor, and I can't think of a single friend or acquaintance who actually pays hard cash for it now.

I have sought further information this morning, and have been unequivocally* informed that the mayor - whose decision it is; not any staff/officers - has made NO decision.

I also heard this morning that there was a group of 'council people' at the game yesterday, with popsiders chanting "It's OUR ground" at them. Seems odd: if GI WERE to have entertained any councillors or staff BEFORE any decision was taken, then that rather does leave the council open to accusations of venality. Of course, there are plenty of councillors and officers/staff who are fans and may well have attended together ... Chinese whispers and all that.

The latest word I hear is that GI is now considering sites other than Plainmoor, with the freehold of Plainmoor not necessarily in the frame any longer.

*Edited to add: I have no idea whether I am getting the truth; a version of it; or not. I don't think my 'source' would be lied to, but, hey, nothing would surprise me these days.

merse btpir wrote: ↑17 Apr 2017, 13:36 I was told they 'got' the Mayor by adding it to a pre-arranged interview with him on a totally different subject and then threw the questions at him ~ GOTCHA!!!!

I confirmed that on 1 April on this very site:

"For those who like to read things into things, it may interest you to know that the interview with the mayor was sought to talk about the Tall Ships coming to the Bay this year; the question about GI/TUFC was just tacked onto the end of that."

Do keep up, Merse! =D

As well as drawing attention to the immediate plight of our club, this ‘media storm’ has now ensured that any decision by the mayor, any report by Kevin Mowatt/Liam Montgomery, and any general mucking about by the council over the terms of the ACV taken out by the Trust on the Plainmoor ground will receive national scrutiny.

Not just ‘scrutiny’ by a few disinterested Tory councillors. Their continued silence on where they stand on this issue is becoming deafening.

Bleeper wrote: ↑16 Apr 2017, 11:38 Hopefully!! they have been useless as the face of the local press who should be questioning the integrity of GI but instead decide to turn the other way.

Ah, but the local rag is much more interested in selling tickets for its interminable round of 'awards' ceremony dinners where those who are prepared to pay through the nose for them take it in turns to be slapped on the back for 'winning'.

I'm told they make a packet from them.

News? What news, eh?

merse btpir wrote: ↑14 Apr 2017, 08:18

This mis-information given out to supporters of other clubs is indicative of the widespread lack of awareness and general ignorance of what really is at Torquay United and the lack of care so many supporters show in reading information on the reality of life.

Indeed. But then I wonder why you didn't respond to Vital Lincoln City on here in order to be certain that the information he was given was correct.

Although I would love us to come back tonight with three points (and stranger things have happened), I wish the Imps and the on-an-upwards-trajectory Danny Cowley every success for what I hope is a promotion season for them. I think Mr Cowley is destined for far greater things.

The Overview & Scrutiny Committee meeting which had asked to review the Mowatt report on which the mayor is going to make a decision re Plainmoor has now been cancelled.

Of course, as we know, there currently is no report as there has been no receipt of proposals, but still ...

Eddukkk12 wrote: ↑11 Apr 2017, 01:15 Not if your only trying to raise awareness of the issue you dont need to wait for the election. As i said its a gimmick but given the number of votes most coucil members get (hundereds rather then thousands) it might get a few asking questions about issues raised

Oh, how I hate to rain on people's parade: but do you have any idea how difficult it actually is to get elected?

As I recall, a 'gull' (and I'm pretty sure it wasn't Gilbert, but I could be wrong) declared as a candidate for directly elected mayor back in 2005, on a platform of free parking or some such, but backed off pretty sharpish when he realised just how much he would stand to lose if he didn't get elected (as a minimum, it was £500 to stand and £500 to have an entry in the council's publication, before anything else). Yes, you might raise awareness for a few brief moments, but - believe me - you won't get elected here.

I wholeheartedly agree that we need a much broader spectrum of people representing us, especially at local government level where decisions really do affect our everyday lives, but to try and break the two-party system that has operated for yonks now in Torbay is hugely difficult. There's a single ward in Brixham which is almost a different country; other than that, there has been just one person standing as an independent elected locally in Torbay in about the last 40-odd years.

Barring a by-election, the next Torbay local elections are in May 2019. Being deadly serious, if you want to get elected as an independent, I suggest you start work right now. It will be all the more difficult as we don't have a daily newspaper in the Bay (the WMN sells only 400 copies in Torquay), and barely a weekly one to all extents and purposes anymore, so there's few opportunities for publicity at a local level.

Raising awareness via a website is an idea, but bear in mind that this very site, the top result in any Google search for a TUFC forum, barely makes a dent in the knowledge of TUFC-related matters to either the local population or even to the majority of people who attend TUFC matches. This site, together with the TFF and BTPIR, has been warning for years now about the issues our club has been facing, and it's made no difference at all to the coverage in any local media or the awareness of the average TUFC fan.

If you want to get elected, as a minimum you'll need to deliver regular and frequent newsletters to every single address in your chosen ward to keep your face and name in front of people, and be prepared to hold regular public meetings where either no-one will turn up or people will just want to know what you're going to do about parking or Oldway/the Pavilion. You could work your backside off for the next two years and still get nowhere.

It's not impossible, of course. But if Nick Bye, arguably the most well-known name in local politics, and the sitting incumbent at the time, couldn't win a mayoral election as an independent, then its fair to say that it's not going to be easy for an unknown.

And, speaking personally, I would never give my vote to a gimmick.

gullintwoplaces wrote: ↑10 Apr 2017, 14:09 I accept that he has certain powers, but my point remains that he has to act within the law to the letter. Powers granted to Local Authorities are not unlimited, and a decent lawyer may be able to find holes in actions taken. The way that the ACV is being treated is a case in point. I am not a lawyer, and not trying to be a barrack room lawyer, but I do know that the use of administrative powers at local level is a legal minefield.

I don't disagree. On the face of it, it would seem that 'the council' (by which I mean the officers and the legal department, together with whoever it is they are paying to advise them; I have no idea what the mayor's view is), chooses to interpret the acv one way; the rest of us, and - one hopes - the world at large, another. No doubt any legal advisors paid for by the Trust would take the opposite view to the council. As Charles Dickens said: "The one great principle of English law is to make business for itself."

One main stumbling point would seem to be that the Trust, as Michael makes reference to in his newsletter, has limited funds with which to access legal advice.