Torquay United Fans Forum

Yorkieandy

Disagree slightly with Burnham. I've seen Bodin work hard, I've seen him track back to be fair but what I haven't seen is tangible productivity. Neither have Crewe before us nor Northampton after (although he rarely got on the field of play. Reason?).

IMO his addition would be a complete disaster. League 2 last season was brutal. There is no space. Rovers aren't likely to be confidently steamrollering teams willy nilly and knocking it about like Barcelona, conditions Bodin will prefer if he's to achieve anything at all on the green stuff.

Also the added pressure on him to do well at a club with a much larger fanbase whilst at the same time trying to get back on track will also be an issue. I just don't think he's a strong enough character mentally to learn what isn't working for him and improve on it and ultimately to turn his career around.

For his sake I hope he does. It doesn't matter either way to me. This is my view anyway.

Yorkieandy

forevertufc wrote:Completely agree with Andy's sentiment. I do not want to come across as if, I'm insulting Thea Bristow's generosity, or integrity, however, I'm not going to insult the intelligence of Thea Bristow either.

This suggestion that Thea, was some how this simple old lady that whilst chair of TUFC, did nothing but sit at home cuddling the cat, whilst watching endless episodes of loose women , waiting dutifully for Conan to ring up and dupe her out of another bundle of cash, is in, itself both cruel, evil and insulting.

Thea Bristow would have attended board meetings, would have agreed with and signed off on the decision making process, Thea played her part in the appointment of a done nothing, know nothing,no contacts, no chance of ever keeping the club in the league or getting it back there manager, Thea played her part in preventing the current board from taking control of the club in March, which would have enabled them to put many of the fix's there having to do overnight, in place in a reasonable time frame, immunity not granted.

Whilst I'm personally grateful for what the Bristow family did for this club and always will be, it needs to be said, and Mattpuma was right to do so, he only said what, trust me, many are thinking, and perhaps to scared to say.

Hi Dave. Hope you and the lads are well man?

I wasn't directly having a pop at your post so apologies if it came across as that. I think you make some good points about the level of involvement Thea had in boardroom wheeling and dealings. I paint her as, like you describe, a simple old lady who loves cats and frequently signs cheques blindly to buy shite footballers on the recommendations of two blokes, one most famous for nearly running over a squirrel and the other for being called 'Tarzan' whereas you are of the opinion that she was a little more aware of what was going on behind the scenes than people think.

Well she certainly sanctioned much of the spending but it's ludicrous to suggest that she actually instigated the processes to acquire AK and CH as well as a near full playing squad of duds. An analogy which may explain my view is this. I win Euromillions. I win 15 million. I opt to become a racehorse owner as I love horse racing so I approach a trainer. As it's the south west i'll plump for David Pipe. So I approach Mr Pipe and tell him i'm on the lookout for some decent racehorses for him to train so he goes to the sales and buys several on my behalf. He's an experienced trainer so I trust his judgement. I sign the cheque, he knows his onions and he buys the nags. The horses all turn out to be equine versions of Billy Bodin, they run about a lot, are wonderfully groomed and turned out but they're losers. Is it my fault that I have put all my eggs in one basket in good faith and trusted the opinions of others? A bit naÃ¯ve perhaps yes but I don't see how in that instance, I could be held accountable for the bad judgement of those who were there to run things. Likewise with Thea.

She was 'advised'. She wasn't the decision maker. Others made the decisions and she trusted those decisions. Others probably said that CH was the perfect fit, an old legend, cutting his teeth, with plenty of 'supposed' contacts and determined to be a success. Oh and relatively cheap too. I can't imagine Thea sat at home going through all the pro's and con's of such an appointment. Like I said, naÃ¯ve but nothing more serious than that. She let the others do all the 'homework' and to make two humongous mistakes without impunity. Knill and Hargreaves.

I know I blame the board for a lot of horrendous practices but there are also two managers and a near full squad of footballers who should never be allowed to work in the industry again. Thea helped appoint AK and CH but once again, these two clowns squeezed the cash out of her to go out and buy some real stiffs. Not one or two but bloody loads of them. All over Plainmoor. To add to the useless crew already here when Knill took over. Did Thea suggest to Knill about signing Karl Hawley? Was he HER idea or was it Knill who convinced her he'd be a good fit and that Torquay should sign him if they could? Exactly. She wanted to co-operate and help her managers the most she could so she did. I fail to see that by agreeing to things and sanctioning the cash that this makes her in some way partly to blame for others being shitter at their jobs than Ed Miliband.

I mean come on. The last 2 or 3 years have been a relentless cascade of absolutely bizarre decisions and events of monumental comedic proportions and there is absolutely no way that anyone from outside the coven could parachute in to the club as an outsider and not think, "HANG ON A MINUTE?!! THIS IS **** MENTAL!!!"

Sadly Thea did do this and you have to ask why? How did she not see? More importantly, an very intriguing and pertinent question Jerry asked about her son, why did he not step in? What did HE think about all this? I'm damn sure if it was my parents being taken to the cleaners then i'd have summat to say about it. All very odd.

Were the directors involved so very charming and helpful from day one that Thea felt exceedingly comfortable and in the safest of hands? She was a multi millionaire fan with zero business experience actively wanting to step in and help her club. I'm sure her arrival was welcomed with the widest of open arms.

There will probably always be more questions than answers but although Thea may not have owned a cat or watched loose women, she was certainly 'seen coming' as we like to say in northern parts.

I'm 100% happy to absolve Thea of doing anything wrong but put trust in the human race.

Great to see Breedy involved in the new set up and it's worth remembering that he and the rest of them actually got off their arses and did something about what was looking like a terminal problem. They didn't sit around moaning and spending months intellectually considering the rights and wrongs of joining the trust. They got together. They love the club. They got together and they came up with a plan. They put their bollocks on the line and to hell with it. They did it. They did it. They did it. A life lesson to me most certainly. Inspiring.

Yorkieandy

Not that most of you particularly care for my opinion but the situation regarding Thea was one of the reasons for my 'defection'. She pumped in a fortune and built an entire stand, all because she cared and wanted the best for the club. She knew absolutely nothing about running a football club and entrusted this highly skilled and responsible position to an assortment of truly abhorrent individuals who convinced, sorry, hoodwinked her into thinking they could competently do this on her behalf.

If those spending Thea's cash were doing so with the best for TUFC at heart and made basic errors of judgement then I can sort of get my head around this but this scenario is not what I choose to believe.

Thea IS handed immunity from any blame whatsoever. To suggest or think otherwise is cruel, evil, call it what you will. Bizarre in fact.

She said to those suits behind the scenes, "i know nothing", ala Manuel in Fawlty Towers. They knew this and had a field day. Thea simply funded the club's operations for the time she was at the helm, it was those actually using that money to the detrimental effect of the football club that are solely culpable for the club nearly going to the wall. As well as Knill and Hargreaves too obviously. Both totally clueless and both with brass necks.

Thea is a very kind and generous woman to the point where she could have just bailed out and left you all in the brown stuff but despite all that has passed she STILL has the best interests of the club at heart.

I'll tell you what, to have bombed 3 or 4 million in the space of a couple of years trying to do something she believed in and STILL seeing the best in people, not harbouring grudges and not being eaten alive by bitterness makes her a very, very special individual indeed. All she needs to know is that it is her who is the real winner. Odd to say now a few million lighter but she had a vision. She had a dream and she went for it. That is to be admired. She was thrust into the limelight despite clearly being nervous and inexperienced at such media attention but she got on with it and yes, she had folk laughing and criticising her for it too.

She clearly has integrity, faith, passion, bravery and humility. She also had a lot of money. She gave much of it to try and make TUFC a better place.

Thea is one of the few people from the club I have complete respect for. They say money can't buy respect and it has to be earned. For me anyway, respect is the one thing Thea has in abundance from many people and she didn't have to spend a penny for. Hopefully for her sake she gets to enjoy future yellow success sat in one of the seats she bought in the Bench. It's richly deserved.

Yorkieandy

Billy Bodin?

Yorkieandy

Stephentsd wrote:Hi, Mansfield Town fan here

Paul Cox will win you games simple as that, he'll turn you into a well oiled machine that are extremely organised and difficult to play against, you wont get any thashings, he will get players putting their bodies on the line, he starts off slow but the 2nd half of the season his teams generally fly, be patient with him.

As for his style, it wont be pretty he likes to play long ball, he does mix it up, put hes very direct, wants balls into the box as fast as possible, he likes a big lump striker up top and a fast striker to play off him. Whats good is you have Briscoe which he knows from Mansfield, Briscoe was instrimental in our success in the conference.

The very best of luck, i'll be keeping an eye on you with great interest, names i would expect him to sign would be Ross Dyer, Anthony Howell, Lindon Meikle and Lee Stevenson.

All the best

Lindon Meikle has another year to run at York and won't be getting anywhere near the action next season, as he didn't the last 3 or 4 months of last season. York are desperate to offload him but I am praying he doesn't end up at Plainmoor. Think Billy Bodin. Lindon is a similar type of player, diminutive, tricky, runs about a lot but never scores and never produces anything ever. His confidence is shot to bits too at the minute. He is at best lower half conference standard and he may get more joy against some of the poorer defences in the conference now and then. Obviously I am aware that you need to start getting players in but it's vitally important you don't once again make desperate signings and get lumbered with duff players on 2 year or longer deals. I'm 100% sure that those in charge won't allow this to happen willy nilly anyway. Maybe the odd player will turn out to be a dud but not the 4,5,6,7 plus that Knill and Hargreaves signed.

Paul Cox looks like a shrewd appointment and decision making all round from the new consortium has been swift, confident and decisive. What a breath of fresh air. Best of luck for the new season and I send my regards to everyone I knew down there. Hope you all are well.

Yorkieandy

So pleased to hear that the situation down there is looking a lot more rosy. Best of luck for the next critical few months and of course for next season and remember, If you can come out the other side of this in one piece then that surely makes you all stronger and united. Torquay United.

Best wishes.

Yorkieandy

yeovilgull wrote:A good point RG.
The truth is none of know what the financial arrangement with KT is. One of the best ways to ensure he worked on our longer term interests would be one where he is paid a portion of his fee now and the remainder in 12 months on the proviso that we still have a viable club ready to face the 2016-17 season in the Conference or above.
I suspect any arrangement will have been on KT terms.
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Or you could all have joined the Trust when it first appeared nearly half a year ago now and given yourselves a more than fighting chance. Keeping fingers crossed and hoping is all well and good but only when there are no other options available. Now it's the ONLY option.

Join up NOW and make sure you have no regrets. It's never too late.

Yorkieandy

Amended post. Thea is an amazingly generous woman and should ignore people's poison.

Yorkieandy

I'm hoping that CH grasps the nettle. What's the point in wanting to be proved right? I couldn't care less either way for me personally but for many of you good guys out there it would mean something to shout about and that can only be a good thing for you.

Yorkieandy

tomogull wrote: Okay, Andy - let's forget Hasselbaink. I had forgotten he had managed a Belgian club before coming to Burton and as you rightly say, Burton were on the up when he was appointed. But I think you've made my case for me ! I overlooked Paul Buckle (how could I ever forget Mr. Buckle ???). He was a rookie manager when he was appointed. He got us out of the Conference, admittedly with good financial support, but he also took us to the Div 2 Play Off final which was over achievement for a manager in his third season. Let's put another young manager in the mix - Gary Monk. No previous experience but Swansea have their highest points total in their Premier Div history. Hargreaves has had a tough baptism in his first full season. If he's honest with himself, he will know his side has under-achieved and he has made mistakes along the way. But I'm all for giving him a further three months of the new season to see if lessons have been learned.

By the way Andy, York soon dispensed with the services of a 'tough old head' (Nigel Worthington) in favour of a young-ish manager I actually thought Worthington was a shrewd manager. Is Chris Brass still at the club, by the way? So let's agree to differ slightly. You may prove to be right about Hargreaves but I think he deserves more time after inheriting the dross of Knill's signings (on two year contracts) that took us down to the Conference.

:Oops: Ok fair do's tommo. I think I should be diplomatic and state that we both have valid points and neither of us incorrect.

It's refreshing to have a debate with someone out there in torquayfansforumland who doesn't make instant ignorant dismissals about someone just because they no longer support the same football team as them so thanks.

For me Hargreaves actually disappointed me a lot more in the way he approached the survival bid than he has done over the course of this season. This season hasn't been great but he hasn't really got any excuses left after next season has finished so like you say, it's just a case of watching and waiting. I think inexperienced managers can make a real fist of things sometimes unless they are John Carver.

It all depends on a lot of things coming together I guess but ability is one important aspect. As you mention York I thought I could tie this in. Russ Wilcox did amazing when he took over Scunny and got them up, his first managerial post but things soon went wrong. He then took the post at York and many of us were concerned that he had only experience of getting a winning team up and not keeping a losing one up. We now know that he has kept York up comfortably in the end and that gives him more strings to his bow which bodes well for next season, the last at Bootham Crescent before moving into the brand new Community Stadium at Monks Cross.

Touching on another similarity between York and Torquay (apart from both realising that Ryan Jarvis was shite) is the management styles of Worthington and Ling. Both dour tacticians, both preferred to be hard to beat and both reaching the play offs with a poorer side than many at the top by nicking millions of 1-0 wins whilst not playing particularly well. Ling got found out by Cheltenham likewise Worthington by Fleetwood. I was unfortunate enough to witness much of Worthingtons last 3 months in charge before he got the boot in October and he paid the price for signing a lot of players on 2 year deals in the summer who weren't good enough to deliver his rigid style of playing with success. Like myself and many others at Torquay, when you're playing shite and winning 1-0 who cares? (I did actually, I voiced my disapproval on many occasions of Ling's methods even though we were flying) but when you start losing and still playing shite then any manager is in trouble. Worthington was indeed shrewd but put out incredibly boring sides which was ok when it was going right but it did for him this season with the poor start. I guess football fans are the same the world over and not just Torquay fans. Some were appealing for fans to see past the lack of entertainment and stick with NW much like many did with Ling believing that stability was needed and something could be built. Torquay had no real option due to Ling's unfortunate illness but York did and decided to dispense with his services. It had all got a bit stale. Wilcox took an almighty age to get things to turn but this he did in the end.

To be honest, some of the York players this season are worse than their yellow counterparts that got relegated by some distance and it really needed half a team of loan players to get us by. NW's signings have been shocking and many still have a year to run and won't see the light of day in a red shirt again I don't doubt. Marvin McCoy and Femi Ilesanmi both full backs have been disturbing and give me Kev Nic and Dale Tonge any day. Malvind Benning and Stephane Zubar were brought in for defensive cover as was Middlesbrough midfielder Brad Halliday who sometimes filled in. Lindon Meikle is basically a smaller Billy Bodin. All the gear and no idea. Lots of pace, trickery, flicks and nothing at the end of them. Hasn't played for months and never will again. Olejnik was brought in for a flapping Micheal Ingham and that was even after another 2 keepers had been used by York this season including another loanee Alex Cisak. Ryan Jarvis was shipped out after getting sent off one game and he won't be back. Coulthirst was added and not been the best of success stories. Emile Sinclair was signed , scored a few then played like bambi on ice for a while then got injured. The list is endless. I think the difference between York and Torquay is that Wilcox has identified the areas we're short on and brought in adequate replacements. Knill and Hargreaves especially let's not forget brought in a load of loanees to be fair to the board on that score but by and large they were frigging useless or not used appropriately.

Brass is nowhere to be seen around York these days and for many of them it's best that way. :whip:

That's it I guess.

Yorkieandy

Rjc70 wrote: He did pretty well for Bournemouth when they had the points deduction for administration. Agreed, he has had money since, but as a comparison with budgets of others within the League his Club has been playing in, he has overachieved. I suspect Hargreaves hasn't.

Spot on Rjc70. A point I was trying to make and that passed others by it seems.

When Howe took over Bournemouth in January 2009 they were doomed due to a 17 point deduction. Howe with no experience and no money (it was only later he got cash to spend ) and a squad bereft of quality and confidence managed to win 12 and draw 3 of his 21 games thus guiding them to safety. Hargreaves took over Torquay in far better shape than Bournemouth were then and made a right pigs ear of it in pretty much the same set of circumstances. That was part of my point. Hardly a moronic argument to suggest that there was and is a gulf in ability between the two managers.

Yorkieandy

tomogull wrote:There's a lot of 'meat' in Andy's posting and Nickbrod's two-liner is spot on. New owners might well come in and decide changes of management are needed but we have to get it right off the pitch first. As on old git, I don't like change. We seem to be on a roller coaster of a manager-a-season who has to bring in his own players. We need some stability. I'm all for sticking with CH for at least the first three months of the new season to see if he has learned from some of the mistakes made this season. He must know that his first season has not been successful. Looking at his photo in last Saturday's programme, he has aged about ten years in the last twelve months (unless it was because his BBC make-up was missing). He was a leader as a player and I hope he can prove that he can be a leader as a manager.

With all due respect tommo, Hasselbaink had managed second tier Belgians Royal Antwerp for a year before accepting the Burton job and let's not forget that Burton had been on an upward curve for the last few years also and in a commanding position when Rowett left. Even Knill could have come in and got Burton up. So Hasselbaink had some experience and had been left a penalty kick for promotion near as dam it.

Eddie Howe I believe laughed in the face of a minus 17 points deduction in his first season in charge of Bournemouth under difficult circumstances also and got them safe from the drop. This was the first indicator that he had something about him as a manager for a rookie. When you compare this with Hargreaves taking over Torquay also a rookie, CH couldn't achieve the same outcome. Howe continued his remarkable rise to fame supported latterly by a solid and supportive board off the pitch and they are where they are now. Would CH be able to follow in Howe's footsteps given a fair few quid? I don't know the answer to that.

The point i'm trying to make is that yes, whilst I still think a wizened old head should be sought, there is no doubt that a rookie with the scope and potential for success could achieve it like Howe did from the very first whistle. The thing is , with Howe, the evidence was there from the beginning to back this up whilst CH has no such evidence to fall back on to suggest he will be up to the job. Money or not. So therefore to reduce the element of risk and probability of success the club should seek an experienced man at this level.

Torquay managers have not been 'tough old heads' in recent years as you rightly point out. In fact it could be argued that the most experienced of them all in Alan Knill was by far and away the worst but we're not talking about being happy in mid table in league 2 here are we? We're talking a completely different kettle of fish. We're talking to be top dog to gain automatic in a league of mostly ex-league clubs all looking to do the same thing with the same or much better resources. Or at best a play off spot.

Buckle was inexperienced but had the buying power to get out of jail. Richard Hill at Eastleigh is inexperienced as a manager but has the buying power to get them out of jail. The bloke at Brizzle likewise and Grimsby too et al. They all can't buy their way out of the conference but they sure as hell will finish above a club with nowt run by an amateur. CH doesn't have the acumen to achieve superiority over said opponents over the course of a season with peanuts to operate with, largely due to his inexperience and lack of common sense. Nor can he motivate. We've seen this.

An old hand who can organise, galvanise, grind out results and keep things simple is needed to squeeze every last ounce of value out of an average set of players is what is needed. When the conference is revamped to 3 up automatically then perhaps the argument for keeping CH would have some legs but as it is it's a no brainer. This is the conference. You either get out relatively quickly or you end up totally screwed like Stockport or permanently stuck like Lincoln if you get it wrong.

Yorkieandy

brooker wrote:Sorry to kill your negativity Andy, but it has been said on another forum that things are going very well, and that the deal could be wrapped up in the next fortnight.

Brooker, that is excellent news. See it as negativity if you like but I see it as vital to the progression of TUFC. A TUFC with any of the incumbent board making decisions is doomed. I would be over the moon for you lot to have new faces come in, new ideas, new momentum and get bloody moving forward again and if such a scenario appears to be on the horizon then i'd be the first to express my happiness. Anyone know who the deal involves anyway if it's not the current board?

Yorkieandy

Where ARE these new owners anyway? Ooops sorry, meant to say where are these 'new' existing board members anyway? :Oops:

Yorkieandy

CH has achieved a league position that would have been reasonably acceptable to any sensible fan at the start of the season, especially given the turmoil of the relegation season. This could be up for debate however given that half the league consisted of some very very poor teams. I don't know whether it is true or not that he said if he couldn't keep Torquay up then he would get them up at the next time of asking. I think if he DID say this then again, any sensible fan would have seen this as a media soundbite and that it wasn't really achievable even if Mourinho was in charge. I do think that avoiding relegation was achievable given the amount of time CH had to turn things around at the time but in terms of getting Torquay up this time around that certainly wasn't going to be possible, even allowing for the paucity of decent sides in there. Anyone could see that.

It's just the manner and approach to management that CH has taken this season that has caused great concern and bewilderment at times even given the difficult circumstances resulting in him emerging with little credit. The cup run was against lower league part timers who proved that the gulf in class is not really there with North Ferriby's final win over Wrexham.

I feel that the club needs a real tough old head who knows the nuances of football at this level and who basically can show that he knows what he is doing. CH is not this person and whilst i'm sure he is eager to learn and this experience will serve him greatly in the future, for the present he is a million miles away from the person who fits the right criteria to get Torquay seriously competitive on a budget.

Stick with him and next season more of the same. Those who like to see the bigger picture and bemoan the trigger happy culture of firing managers are not wrong, there is something to be said for sticking with a manager through the tough times and building and nurturing a side but it's a fine line. Ling is the manager many state could have taken us further given time but IMO we were heading down under Ling , the freefall under him would have been impossible to stop if he stayed whilst battling his illness. That said I do think that Ling had the makings of someone who knew what they were doing at this level despite dull football and maybe with most of the old players gone now, Torquay should try and get the man back now he is better and do some grovelling. Knill had fans appealing for time and clemency and it was clear he would have taken Torquay down which was blatantly obvious around October. Hargreaves pitched up and a few weeks in the writing was on the wall. Fans again called for patience but the evidence was out there on the pitch and on the league table. Now Hargreaves STILL has supporters despite last season which is quite frankly bizarre.

By all means stick with CH and be loyal but you ain't going anywhere in the meantime.

One thing about the conference is that to be in with a chance of automatic you have to be ultra consistent. Three of four teams will be and amass a serious points haul. That leaves a load of clubs scrapping for one, maybe two play off places. Torquay only have hope of getting one of these under CH. It's tenuous. It's precarious and it's about blind faith.

What you all need to do now is look back on the archives of this forum the past 3 years from the fans that ignored the obvious and tangible on the basis of blind faith and look at where TUFC are now.

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