Torquay United Fans Forum

I find it curious a lot of people are so willing to return to last season's formation after a few dodgy performances with 4-4-2. It didn't work before the York game, and it has been clear all along it doesn't with any of our current central midfielders replacing Eunan. Would it really be so outlandish not to go with 4-5-1 or 4-4-2?!

The position we're strongest, for me, is central defence. Why not play Saah, Downes *and* MacDonald? We would then be less reliant on the defensive abilities of Nicholson and Oastler, which is just as well after their recent performances (when did Jo become an enterprising wing-back incapable of defending?!?). Pick the best two from Manse/Lathrope/Easton, with Craig our central ball-player, and Howe supported by Jarvis/Yeoman/Bodin. This formation would suit us as we currently have no wingers capable of staying fit or consistently performing well.

NickGull wrote:Don't think he's willing enough? There have been many, many games where Howe has been the only one who actually looks like he wants to win. Bristol Rovers away this year, for example.

Agree with Nick on this i'm afraid Novice. When i first saw Howe play, albeit somewhat infrequently due to mainly going to away games, i was really disappointed with his workrate and effort. Like you say he would lose the ball and not bother to try and make amends. I did voice my displeasure on here ( when don't i? ).

Gradually his performances improved and so did his workrate and now he works as damn hard as anybody for the team and i am totally happy with him. He does look cumbersome at times and IMO often gets free kicks given AGAINST him when competing for the ball because he looks awkward but a lot of the time it is the opposition player doing the fouling. He likes the ball to feet, he likes to run through on goal and often i don't think we give him appropriate service or regular service and so he gets annoyed. He has scored many goals this season out of nothing and is quality.

my comment was nothing to do with wanting to win. i actually think all our players want to win. what i meant was that when rene is bombarded by opposition players he seems to run out of ideas about how to deal with the situation and then moans to his own team players. i really do think other teams have got him sussed out. we should have a plan b when rene is snuffed out of the game.

Don't think he's willing enough? There have been many, many games where Howe has been the only one who actually looks like he wants to win. Bristol Rovers away this year, for example.

funny how we see things differently. i actually think our players do give rene the service he is asking for (probably too much rather than looking for other options ) but other teams have done their homework and got wise to him. although i think rene is very talented i don't think he is good enough or willing enough to put the effort in to counteract this and gives up too easily.

as for ling giving instructions and giving players service, on numerous occasions in the last game i heard him screaming to craig to give oastler the ball when doing the overlap ready for a cross and not once did he do it. oastler was very frustated and on the final occasion ling took craig off. this was obviously part of the gameplan so why do players not do as instructed

as for nicho on the other side, i think his past 2 games have been better.

Absolutely right Andy-at the Wimbledon match Lingy shouted some instructions to Rene when he was wandering out wide(presumably to get back in the middle) and he shouted "they're not giving me the f*c*i*g ball there"-or something very similar-so it is all about the lack of service to him up-front. Rene and Yeoman did seem to play-off each other well at times so I would persist with that pairing but the service to Rene needs to be quicker and when he's further up the field- not forcing him to come back in his own half to collect it,so much.

There usually IS little quality service from the wide areas meaning Rene has to drop deeper or wider, this has been made a lot worse when Ling would play 1 up top as any chances Howe got he basically carved out of thin air for himself. I don't actually think Rene is all that good as an out and out poacher more better when he drops off or runs at defenders, Jarvis is our man for poaching but without the supply from wide areas he will struggle too.

I am puzzled by the amount of time Rene spends on the wings, presumably under orders
Agreed he does good work there in getting possession and harrying defenders
But I feel he would be far more productive in and around the box waiting for service from others (? ) in the wide positions

NickGull wrote:Poke

Oastler, Saah, Downes, Cruise

Lathrope

Bodin, Mansell, Craig, Stevens

Howe.

Back to what we know. The full backs are where we have been weak recently. Oastler has struggled, but I think he is a very capable L2 full back, as he showed last year. Nicho, unfortunately is looking like he's on his way out. Give Cruise a go. In the heart of defence I think Saah and Downes are very capable for this level.

Into midfield, we've struggled with the formation change. Bring DL back into the fold - he does the donkey work of breaking up attacks, then passing. Thats fine, he does it well. He also provides excellent protection for the back four if we are getting under pressure. The two infront are very weak compared to last year. Last season Mansell was having the year of his life, now he's looking like his legs are going to, which isn't a surprise considering the amount of running he does a game. Craig has got potential, without a shadow of doubt, but O'Kane was twice as good last year. I'm sure Craig will get better, but at the minute we're a lot weaker in that area because Manse is struggling, while EoK was just excellent for 2/3 of last season.

On the wings, we know Billy can do it. He's shown it in the loan spell. However, it's a vicious circle for him at the moment. He's struggling to make impacts, which was possibly down to this injury he has, we don't know for sure. Hopefully once he returns, he will start showing some of the form he showed last year. Stevens on the other side is a very average L2 player. Good on his day, which isn't that often. He needs to be told to get his head down and run down the line. Win a throw-in/corner. It'll help. Get the ball in, who knows what'll happen. Same for Bodin. Just go back to basics - try and stretch the opposition.

Howe is a no brainer. The best striker in L2 on his day I think, but he too has been off form for a while. Hopefully the goal on NYD will see him start scoring again more regularly. He likes the ball into his feet, where he can use his body to hold off. We need the wingers to be right up there supporting, giving outlets on BOTH sides! We also need Craig/Mansell to be up supporting ASAP. That can't happen without Lathrope sitting comfortably behind them.

Agree with all of this, although the sentimentalist in me would want to give Nico another chance or seven.

Lathrope is better than Easton. Craig is not a wideman. Come on Lingy, see the light!!

Poke

Oastler, Saah, Downes, Cruise

Lathrope

Mansell, Craig

Bodin, Stevens

Howe.

Back to what we know. The full backs are where we have been weak recently. Oastler has struggled, but I think he is a very capable L2 full back, as he showed last year. Nicho, unfortunately is looking like he's on his way out. Give Cruise a go. In the heart of defence I think Saah and Downes are very capable for this level.

Into midfield, we've struggled with the formation change. Bring DL back into the fold - he does the donkey work of breaking up attacks, then passing. Thats fine, he does it well. He also provides excellent protection for the back four if we are getting under pressure. The two infront are very weak compared to last year. Last season Mansell was having the year of his life, now he's looking like his legs are going to, which isn't a surprise considering the amount of running he does a game. Craig has got potential, without a shadow of doubt, but O'Kane was twice as good last year. I'm sure Craig will get better, but at the minute we're a lot weaker in that area because Manse is struggling, while EoK was just excellent for 2/3 of last season.

On the wings, we know Billy can do it. He's shown it in the loan spell. However, it's a vicious circle for him at the moment. He's struggling to make impacts, which was possibly down to this injury he has, we don't know for sure. Hopefully once he returns, he will start showing some of the form he showed last year. Stevens on the other side is a very average L2 player. Good on his day, which isn't that often. He needs to be told to get his head down and run down the line. Win a throw-in/corner. It'll help. Get the ball in, who knows what'll happen. Same for Bodin. Just go back to basics - try and stretch the opposition.

Howe is a no brainer. The best striker in L2 on his day I think, but he too has been off form for a while. Hopefully the goal on NYD will see him start scoring again more regularly. He likes the ball into his feet, where he can use his body to hold off. We need the wingers to be right up there supporting, giving outlets on BOTH sides! We also need Craig/Mansell to be up supporting ASAP. That can't happen without Lathrope sitting comfortably behind them.

ferrarilover wrote:We had such success last year, that surely the answer is to replicate that winning formula as closely as possible?

Accordingly:

Poke (the closest thing we have to Bobby)

Lathrope (virtually the key to our whole season last term)

Joe (ever present last year) Saahsy (same) Downer (at very least as good as Ellis) Cruise (sorry Nico, really, I am, but maybe a little break will do you good, it's nothing personal, just think you might need a couple of weeks off to re-find your best form)

Danny (still offers us plenty) Craig (the closest thing we have to Eunan) Manse (not perfect this year, but still the best at his job that we have) Morro (class, class and more class. Terrible start now overcome and will, of he can recover from his injury without side effect, be a real influence for us next year)

Rene (why wouldn't you select him)

Those who miss out vary from grossly out of form (Bodin) to purely unlucky to be beaten by a better man (Tommo/Macklin) to toss-of-a-coin decisions (MacDonald).

Matt.

As ever absence makes the heart grow fonder. Morris - class? really? really?? Of our group (not saying much) I'd like to see him play in the middle because he does tend to pass the ball to his team mates which is a rare commodity within this TUFC squad but Morris during his entire spell here has been generally poor rather than being class.

Lathrope is fine when he's surrounded by good players where he can do bits and pieces, give the ball easy and break things up, no oen noticed him last year because he was efficient and Manse and Eunan were excellent, his weaknesses are exposed by having Craig and Easton by him instead of Manse (at 100%) with Eunan. Easton does exactly the same job but is older and even worse at passing it with less mobility than Damon. Craig isn't anywhere near Eunan that's also a problem. A major problem when you try and go through someone like we did with Eunan. Pokey again isn't anywhere near the class of Bobby who was the main reason we were in the top 7 last year. We were a midtable side with the best keeper in the league who won us numerous games 1-0 and gave us a slightly false slant on where we were as a group, that wasn't going to happen this year and it isn't happening. That's not a dig at Craig or Poke it's just fact. We've lost our 2 best players who were head and shoulders above the rest not just within the club but the league also.

Stevens has been injured and over his TUFC career has been a hot and cold player, Manse hasn't got the same license as last year because we don't keep the ball as well so is ending up doing more defensive work, Nicho has had his worst season for yonks, then on top of that we've had injuries out wide which haven't helped. Forced us into playing youngsters and then the final thing is Bodin has flopped like Pele without the Pfizer. Wasted nigh on our whole budget on one player and his lack of form has been disastrous. If it wasn't for Howe carrying this side we would be bottom 2. He's so much better than all of our players technically it's untrue and is our only source of goals. It's no coincidence that since Rene's goals have dried up that our form has declined.

Despite all that we'll still be a competitive mid table side, we'll have the odd win when we don't expect it, we'll lose games we shouldn't (on paper) because that's what midtable sides do. The cup defeat was a complete disaster, not because we should beat Harrogate or the embarrasing side of it but purely financial. It's killed us in terms of trying to add to the squad and we desperately need to add.

The positives of this season is we've seen one or two young lads come through and do ok, raw but ok and they'll benefit from being involved in the first team, I too would like Cruise to get a bit of a go just to have a look at him really as none of us know whether he could be an option. (still think the Cruise/LRT thing was a mistake and I bet Cruise is on more money)

yellowsmiffy wrote:Matt, I still only count Poke, Joe, Saah, Downes, Cruise, Stevens, Craig, Manse, Morris and Rene before you explain a few other omissions haha!? I'm feeling pretty sober today!

Can't you see Lathrope in his formation?

Well spotted yellowsmiffy and yes you are totally and utterly correct in saying my fervour for Ling to go 2 up top was feverish for most of this season. This clamour for the change in formation came about as a result of our reluctance to attack and defensive attitude in all games i saw, many of which there was little need to be so conservative. Despite my protestations about our performances i still believed that having Rene as a main striker accompanied by the positivity, support and supply of two or three offensive minded players would have been perfectly acceptable and would have worked well. That is why i have gone with Rene up top with Morris and Thommo offering forward support, Thommo quick to get balls into the box or take defenders away from Rene, Morris with a sublime knack of drifting into positions vacated by Rene and also Craig who could just sit in behind offering vision and goals from outside the area. Manse could go forward or sit to protect Damon as need be and the defence would be protected most of the time and they are more than capable.

My problem with the 1 up top that we were playing earlier in the season was that (IMHO) , we were far too tippy tappy, far too slow to get support in for Howe, far too negative which resulted in the opposition having so much possession that nearly our entire midfield would be spending their time in deeper defensive roles thus leaving Rene isolated. When we did break we couldn't get players up quick enough and the attacks broke down. We played the wrong players in the wrong positions and a formation which we could have had so much success from was embarrassing us. I hope i am explaining my points ok yellowsmiffy, it wasn't the formation i had a problem with it was the way Ling didn't use tactics or the squad properly which made it unsuccessful and boring to watch. I begged for 4-4-2 because it became apparent as each away game passed, the persistance of Martin to continue in the same vein wouldn't be changed so i thought the only way to get supporting players in the right end of the pitch would be to have 2 up from the kick off. It was desperation really. He changed the formation for the York game and although we were still poor as hell and created only 2 chances which were both scored, we looked a lot more healthier in terms of numbers of players in the right areas at the right times.

My sort of 4-1-4-1 formation makes me happy and i believe it could be successful and lead to entertaining football if Ling uses the right players in the appropriate manner. He wasn't doing this before and his negative tendencies made the performances a lot more undigestable. Hope i'm clear with this because i don't want to sound like i want to have my cake and eat it. 4-4-2 was just a desperate plea for a change from something which COULD have worked really well but didn't.

Do not drink and post. Drink and drive, yes, ok, if you must, no one likes walking home from the pub, but drinking and posting is a terrible idea.

Have another count when you're feeling less, eerm... fragile and you'll find there are indeed a full compliment of XI.

The last half a dozen games of last season are hardly a reflection on the formation which had seen us into the auto spots for a chunk of the preceding 40 matches. I still blame, in equal measure, Nick Powell and the referee from the same match for our failure to secure an auto place last term. His goal, and the referee's ruling out of our perfectly good winner, was what took the wind out of our sails. The formation wasn't suddenly the problem, it was just the we ran out of steam.

Morris isn't a wide man, but I needed a trip of he, NC and Manse and 3 men into 2 spaces doesn't go, so Morro got shunted wide. He is a classy player, some of his touches to create space and the effortless manner in which he can go past people are very classy indeed. It took a while for it to shine through, but it's there and it will be on show again next season.

Sadly, as I have mentioned previously in response to criticism of the team, there are only half a dozen teams on Earth who have the holy twosome of being able to score loads while conceding few and we definitely ain't on the list. As a L2 manager, one must set our one's stall to play a certain way. Some teams are fast, some teams are big, some teams try to play football as best they can and Accrington **** up their pitch so that the game becomes a lottery. We haven't got the money to sign a load of attacking talent, so 'doing a Port Vale' and simply setting up to score more than the oppo isn't an option. No one really wants to watch Northampton every week, just smashing 70 yard balls up to their two giants, so that's out. We aren't really blessed with bags of pace in the team, and we only really have the cash to pay one guy who can score [ir]regularly, so it's a case for us of shut up shop from the word go and hope to nick a goal via Rene.
This system isn't perfect, but it's no more imperfect than it was last year. The difference is that, in L2 which is so often a tallest dwarf competition across the middle 80% (that is to say, the top 10% are very very good, the bottom 10% are very very bad and the middle 80% are all much of a muchness, reliant more upon luck than skill to determine their final ranking). Last year, we were in the top 10%, where it is more a case of genuinely being one of the better teams (regardless of your chosen method of so being), whereas this year, we're in the 80%, where odd things tend to happen and also to have a greater effect on the league table. It's not an exact science, of course, but, honestly, do we really think there is all that much difference between, say Exeter and Morecambe? Well, the table says that one team is in 5th and the other in 19th. Sounds like a world of difference, but the goal difference tells us that Exeter are a mere 4 goals better off than Morecambe. 4 goals is the difference between the edge of the autos and flirting with relegation. How much better than Morecambe can Exeter really be? An alternative look at the same two teams shows that the difference between the two clubs is 9 away goals. Exeter have scored 9 away goals more than Morecambe, but those 9 goals (in 13 games) have earned them a whopping 16 extra points over Morecambe. In fact, this shows just how poor Exeter are in some respects, since adding 16 points to Morecambe's record actually gives them 45, which is 4 more than Exeter have. See what I mean? It's a lot more to do with luck than judgement. It's entirely possible for Morecambe to have scored an extra 9 away goals and have absolutely no more points than they have now. Even allowing for those extra goals to come in games they did not win, they'd could have just 5 more points.
It is this theory which makes me a little more confident than some that we aren't going down this year. No, we're not good, but then, nor are a great many of the other sides I've seen this year. We're in the 80% this year, and come May, we might well find ourselves towards the bottom end of it, but we are not in the bottom 10%, and it is that group of teams which will supply the eventual relegatees (Useless and Plymouth, if there is a God).

Matt.

We had such success last year, that surely the answer is to replicate that winning formula as closely as possible?

Accordingly:

Poke (the closest thing we have to Bobby)

Lathrope (virtually the key to our whole season last term)

Joe (ever present last year) Saahsy (same) Downer (at very least as good as Ellis) Cruise (sorry Nico, really, I am, but maybe a little break will do you good, it's nothing personal, just think you might need a couple of weeks off to re-find your best form)

Danny (still offers us plenty) Craig (the closest thing we have to Eunan) Manse (not perfect this year, but still the best at his job that we have) Morro (class, class and more class. Terrible start now overcome and will, of he can recover from his injury without side effect, be a real influence for us next year)

Rene (why wouldn't you select him)

Those who miss out vary from grossly out of form (Bodin) to purely unlucky to be beaten by a better man (Tommo/Macklin) to toss-of-a-coin decisions (MacDonald).

Matt.