Torquay United Fans Forum

See you there Neal

My penny worth on this subject.

The long term sustainability will be decided on who owns it.

If it is us the fans in my opinion we would probably never be a league team again BUT we would be in control, and probably could sustain a team still playing at Plain moor for we'll a long time, probably part time and probably in NLS.

If it's a wealthy individual with lots of money we might become a league club again but we are exposed to the whims, uncertainty of their motivations etc.

I am NOW enjoying this season. Going to WSM tonight and will hopefully enjoy it. Enjoy the rest of this season. Keep an eye on CO and the stadium.

If CO came out and legally and contractually stated that if we moved to a new stadium the rent would be the same as it is now, there WOULD be opportunities for expanding off field financial activities that would go straight to the team it might help alleviate the concerns we have, but he doesnt.

[b]Dean Edwards was acting in an act of his own income preservation and conned a group of well-meaning supporters into 'saving' something the 'blessed Bristow' had tired of...[/b]

At least half of them bailed out on receiving the due diligence report and half of the remaining rump soon quit having fallen out amongst themselves under the pressure. People (maybe rightly) claim that had they not 'stepped in' the Club would have been lost. Well that would have been Bristow's responsibility as she was the owner and employer of the staff.

Whatever happens to the Club at whatever time is [b]ALWAYS[/b] the responsibility of the owner of the time; whether it had been Mike Bateson, the Chris Roberts Consortium, the Alex Rowe led board using the decidedly unbalanced financial underpinning of the Bristow family; the Dave Phillips led board or Clarke Osborne using the auspices of his business empire.

[b]Surely everybody can appreciate that![/b]

What I've never understood in this saga, is the position of Dean Edwards. A contributor above referred to 'being taken for a ride by Dean Edwards', but what did he do? I always thought he was a kind of part-time announcer. Would somebody in the know please explain?

His overall aim has not changed please do not be fooled!!

[b]That would still be a capital venture though wouldn't it...[/b]

Venture capital funds are invested in early-stage companies in exchange for equity, this is exactly what Osborne did when he acquired the Club.

Venture capitalists take on the risk of financing risky start-ups in the hopes that some of the firms they support will become successful. Because startups face high uncertainty, such investment do have high rates of failure and so are mainly initiated where such losses can be off-set against the tax liable on other businesses within the ownership.

So many professional football clubs exist on this premis.

What I find odd is why does everyone talk of attracting investors. My understanding of the term investment is that you put in £X and expect a return of £X+Y. I doubt TUFC has ever made a profit, certainly it has been said on another forum that the club has never paid a dividend to its share holders in its history.
The only way that anyone could use the club financially is to use it as a vehicle to write off tax losses.

[quote=culmstockgull post_id=232614 time=1540842616 user_id=24376]
I do agree the jury is still out on his motives and long term objectives,
[/quote]

His motive is clear but the long objectives, not so - CO talks of the clubs long term sustainability but if his business development plans do not go through then he paints a different picture of the club as a going concern. As set out in the 2017 accounts (see below) it conveys doubt that there will be a club after this season. As for offloading it as a capital venture, I do not think a regional football club with assets of a deprecating Bristow Bench and a second-hand lawnmower is attractive enough for anyone willing to take it off his hands.

[i]' the director is aware of certain material uncertainties which may cause doubt on the company's ability to continue as a going concern. The company incurred operational losses during the year of £303,733, this has been funded by loans from the parent company, Riviera Stadiums Limited, totalling £455,000 (2016 - £120,000). At the time of approval of these financial statements, it is the understanding of the director that such financial support will continue for the remainder of the 2017/18 and into the 2018/19 football season. '[/i]

[quote=dawlishmatt post_id=232613 time=1540842298 user_id=24395][i][b]When CO took control of TUFC, he openly admitted that he knew nothing about football and so we all knew his motive for buying the club was not football related.[/b][/i][/quote]

[b]Yes he acquired Torquay United; no he did not and didn't have to buy it![/b]

He didn't have to; it was surrendered to him because those who had utilised his capital had failed to find another buyer to get them off the hook and they lost their co-lateral.

Those who lost that co-lateral did so because they were under capitalised having been taken for a ride by Dean Edwards. They did not enter the fray with making money in mind although they might legitimately be taken to task in their asking terms (not price) for relinquishing control.

Clarke Osborne is neither a well meaning fool like Thea Bristow or any other who puts good money after bad and loses it. Thea Bristow was taken for a ride until those with her own personal interests at heart rather than those of Torquay United steered her away from being relieved of any more of her family inheritance.

Even so; I believe the manner in which Mrs Bristow bailed out was irresponsible because at the end of the day it was her company and she was employing her employees.

A self sufficient and sustainable football club can exist within a development opportunity such as Osborne is seeking but the major fly in the ointment is (1) he has never successfully pulled anything like this off in his life and (2) the dreadfully conservative (with a small c) and un-progressive local community who exist within a declining and rapidly increasingly degenerating environment.

[b]Torquay has declined shamefully during my lifetime and quite frankly is an embarrassment to survey now. Living in the past and to my way of thinking a million miles from being brave enough to give the go ahead to Osborne's vision...and we all know what that will inevitably lead to don't we![/b]

[quote=brooker post_id=232606 time=1540839398 user_id=7521]
I do feel that there could still be some wheeling and dealing going on. As far as I know, Harrop handed in his notice, rather than being removed.

I worry about sustainability. That's initially what CO claimed as his mantra, and yet we must be spending more than in recent times, with less revenue streams than ever before pulling in income. All this splashing of the cash by CO may look like investment or benevolence, but in reality the club must now owe him a considerable amount of money, leaving us in a precarious position given his track record. If he found a shady way to make a quick buck and escape he'd do it without any second thought.
[/quote]

Just need Man Utd away in 3rd round and he will get his money back then let’s see what his next move is

He gets different land for the housing development, as would be the case with Nightingale.

He might then ask for the Plainmoor freehold to put further development on to ‘push the stadium development over the line’. Hopefully it won’t ever be given, as he’s never followed through on a brand new stadium promise, despite examples of lots of housing or retail being built on or nearby pre-existing sites.

His loans to the club are indeed mounting. He won’t be the owner forever, of course, and, of course, he’ll want that back as a minimum. I wouldn’t begrudge that unless it put our club in a position from which it could not get back from as I support TUFC and want it to exist post Osborne. Incidentally, I’m always cautious of someone whose first ever post on a forum is to praise to the hilt an owner with such a back catalogue.

We have every right as fans to enjoy this chapter, even if it is at the lowest League level we’ve been at in living memory. We’ve got a good manager and players more than fit for purpose at this level and look set for an enjoyable season. And we’ve had a succession of shit seasons. But if he can offload our club leaving it without debt to him, I will breathe a huge sigh of relief as Clarke Osborne and promises of new stadia tends not to end well for sporting entities, as absolutely everyone who has read about Milton Keynes, Bristol, Reading and every other example ought to know. They are kidding themselves if they have that knowledge of past stadia promises and how they went, yet then choose to ignore it. They have had one common denominator each and every time.

Enjoy the good times in National League South. I’ll join any fellow fan in that and do. But don’t start rewriting history on the back of it.

Cannot say I agree with much that has been said on this topic,first,you do not continue to invest in a loss making enterprise, that is good business, more so if its your own personal money, CO is no Thea, god bless her. I believe if he got us promoted to the premiership there would still be those that could not see any good in him, I do agree the jury is still out on his motives and long term objectives, but he has lasted longer than some of those that have had the helm at Plainmoor and as I have said in the past I struggle to see how he recoups all the money he has put in even if he gets the ground for housing.

In my humble opinion we have to look at the facts concerning clarke osborne and TORQUAY UNITED
When CO took control of the club, they were according to the previous chairman, days from going into administration. CO saved TUFC from extinction.
If you look back at when Mrs Bristow put the club up for sale, only 3 serious potential buyers were identified. Kelvin Thomas was employed by Mrs Bristow to help her sell the club. Mr Thomas later bought Northampton Town and although they got promoted within a year, look at the state of the club now. Likewise we had interest from the Port Vale owner, Norman Snurthwaite and his club is also in turmoil. Indeed both clubs have recently been relegated. We also had interest from the Truro City owner and look at the mess they are in.
When CO took control of TUFC, he openly admitted that he knew nothing about football and so we all knew his motive for buying the club was not football related.
CO appointed Mr Harrop to run the football club and substantial funds were made available to the manager Kevin Nicholson who successfully kept the club in the league. When things started to go wrong at the start of last season, Nicholson was, in my opinion rightly sacked. That decision must have been made by Harrop as he was running the club. Harrop then waited too long to appoint a new manager in Gary Owers. Dispite the continuing substantial funding of the club by Osborne, Mr Owers turned out to be a disaster and was quite rightly sacked. Within 48 hours, Mr osborne must have spent a small fortune in pursurading in my opinion, one of the best managers in the lower leagues to join our club.
Personally, I don't give a damn of what Mr osbornes motives are, but one thing I am sure of though is that if kelvin Thomas, Norman Snurthwaite or Mr master's of Truro City would have purchased the club, the club would now be extinct.
Thank you Mr Clarke Osborne for saving my beloved club

It's got to be about having a saleable asset surely, if, & it feels likely that it won't happen at nightingale park, CO's plans fall flat on their arse he has a dead duck of a football club that he has no interest in . So to try & recoup top dollar he has to make sure his asset is saleable.
We've been here before with the Phillips consortium, a club for sale, at the price of a modern semi detached in Torbay we were told. What we weren't told was this so called property had no roof or Windows or doors or even fecking walls to speak of for that matter, if you like !
We are seeing investment because the amount of football clubs at our level that are failing into oblivion ( Barrow in trouble, Ebbsfleet in trouble etc, source BTPIR ) there ARE investors out there but who is going to invest in acquiring a perennial underachieving money pit that WAS TUFC years before CO even had a sniff at it.
Remember to remember the good times cos they don't come round often enough for the likes of us, be thankful we still have a side to be proud of again, for how long ? I don't know but without investment the only place this club was going was into liquidation as the likes of Rushden & Diamonds & Darlington etc.

[b]oldcommsboy[/b] is right; Osborne needs to make the club viable as he can then offload it as a capital venture attractive enough for anyone willing to take it off his hands if he does not realise the development project he envisages.