Torquay United Fans Forum

MidDevon wrote:you could argue of course that the money should instead be spent on a decent scouting network.....

Its always worth remembering that 1 x Bobby Olejnik (who arrived free and was sold on for a 6 figure sum) was worth more to the club than a whole year of season-ticket sales...and he came for free from struggling (at the time) Falkirk

...and then there was O'Kane, playing for Coleraine in the Northern Ireland premier, having returned home from being released by Everton

tomogull wrote:

Ha - this brought back memories ! I never rose to the dizzy heights of Western League football - Division 7 of the South Devon league was about my level. But I do recall the jumpers on the ground and about five hour kick around until the bats started swooping and the owls started hooting ! [/quote

stefano wrote: I know competition is mighty fierce to break into the professional game, but surely it always has been? In my day, a long long time ago, more kids played football than do now. We didn't have the modern day distractions. It was jumpers down on the ground and kick the ball around until the bats started swooping!

Ha - this brought back memories ! I never rose to the dizzy heights of Western League football - Division 7 of the South Devon league was about my level. But I do recall the jumpers on the ground and about five hour kick arounds until the bats started swooping and the owls started hooting !

[quote="Trojan 67"]Stefano (all seeing winkey ) and Arcadia hit the target but not the bullseye.

More youngsters made it back in the day because they played in "proper mens football" at an early age. Sooner than later, schoolboy/youth football ends and playing against men begins. Today, it comes as a massive shock to many youngsters. I tell you the truth, back in the day it came as a massive shock and I was an "old youngster" (15 years old when I first started playing senior football). Kicked to f*ck ? And some. I thought f*ck this for a game of soldiers. Many quit, don't have the stomach (guts) for it. I loved the "beautiful game" too much, so I f*cking kicked back. And some. When these days do youngsters start playing real competitive football on a regular basis against grown up dirty b*stards ? After 18 years old ? Gee suss fer cry sakes, they even have an under 21 League !

I played an under lights, behind closed doors, "friendly" game at Plainmoor for a "Torquay United Reserves XI" against an "Exeter City Reserves XI". Both sides fielded a mixture of youth and senior players regular to Western League football ( I was an "old hand" by then, 17 years old). Former Bristol City manager Fred Ford (assistant to manager Jack Edwards) was in charge that night. Fred made several changes at half time but kept this "dirty bastard" on the pitch with this instruction : "Keep winning the ball son, then pass it to OUR CREATIVE B*STARDS !."

Had a way with words did Fred

.

You are quite right back then you had to grow up quickly or you would be put to one side. It's interesting reading and brings back memories as Bristol City ran two sides in the local top leagues Suburban and Premier Combination and played 15 year olds in the Suburban league and 16-17 year olds in the Premier Combination and youngsters got a game of football against men.

Fred Ford was my manager at Bristol City in 1962-63 and he was the one who transferred me to Swindon but looking back he did me a favour as he'd just signed Mike Gibson who was a brilliant keeper for City. I do think that Torquay would benefit from having a side in a local league where they can offer football coached properly at an early age against men with perhaps a couple of good older players helping. I know one lad at Bideford has come on a bundle it's one that's out on loan.

The people who run the game now wrap the youngsters up in cotton wool. I was managing against Torquay when Compton had a very good young side 1990 ish playing in the Western League the centre half went on to play in the Premiership . I heard that Torquay pulled out of the Western League because it was to physical but I don't believe that as the players in that team coped well.

Bring back proper competitive reserve football with youth players playing regular senior football.

Stefano (all seeing winkey ) and Arcadia hit the target but not the bullseye.

More youngsters made it back in the day because they played in "proper mens football" at an early age. Sooner than later, schoolboy/youth football ends and playing against men begins. Today, it comes as a massive shock to many youngsters. I tell you the truth, back in the day it came as a massive shock and I was an "old youngster" (15 years old when I first started playing senior football). Kicked to f*ck ? And some. I thought f*ck this for a game of soldiers. Many quit, don't have the stomach (guts) for it. I loved the "beautiful game" too much, so I f*cking kicked back. And some. When these days do youngsters start playing real competitive football on a regular basis against grown up dirty b*stards ? After 18 years old ? Gee suss fer cry sakes, they even have an under 21 League !

I played an under lights, behind closed doors, "friendly" game at Plainmoor for a "Torquay United Reserves XI" against an "Exeter City Reserves XI". Both sides fielded a mixture of youth and senior players regular to Western League football ( I was an "old hand" by then, 17 years old). Former Bristol City manager Fred Ford (assistant to manager Jack Edwards) was in charge that night. Fred made several changes at half time but kept this "dirty bastard" on the pitch with this instruction : "Keep winning the ball son, then pass it to OUR CREATIVE B*STARDS !."

Had a way with words did Fred.

Bring back proper competitive reserve football with youth players playing regular senior football.

stefano wrote: I did play for our reserve team in the Western League but I can assure you I wasn't one of them. Played with and against professional players and more than held my own .... but - I wasn't good enough. Probably why you never see me slagging players off on a football forum! On another note a few years ago some Argyle fans were giving me stick in my local pub (Argyle stronghold!) and said I never wear my colours. I pointed out to them that in my day there were no club shops so if you wanted to wear the shirt you picked it off the shelf in the dressing room. Amused me at the time .... although in print it doesn't look mildly funny.

Never mind!

It's funny I know players that did that and never had the courage to do it myself wish I had now. I never quite made it
but had a good part-time pro. career and got asked back to City reserves in 85 when they sold Hooper to Liverpool. I was 38 (keeper)
You should remember that in the seventies the Western League was the next down from the Southern League and all the clubs had ex-professionals not like the Western League today as the football league have altered the pyramid system.

arcadia wrote:......but in those days Torquay had a reserve side full of quality young players were you one of them?

I did play for our reserve team in the Western League but I can assure you I wasn't one of them. Played with and against professional players and more than held my own .... but - I wasn't good enough. Probably why you never see me slagging players off on a football forum! On another note a few years ago some Argyle fans were giving me stick in my local pub (Argyle stronghold!) and said I never wear my colours. I pointed out to them that in my day there were no club shops so if you wanted to wear the shirt you picked it off the shelf in the dressing room. Amused me at the time .... although in print it doesn't look mildly funny.

Never mind!

Stefan It's interesting to read other peoples thoughts on youth football but the main problem everywhere is you have to have a manager who has a reasonable side where he can slip a youth player into the side where he can hold his own. Chris to his credit has done this but I think this was not out of choice until the latter part of the season. In England I believe that only a limited foreign under 18's should be able to sign for professional clubs allowing the best chances for British players to develop. I knew from the first game that I seen Levi that he could break into the side given the chance but if that chance did not come even he would be on the scrap heap like a lot of talented young British players. I don't agree with you with regard to players making up the numbers as in the sixties I was involved when nearly all the Bristol City Youth side were given chances and eventually about seven took the club through to the old first division and wait for it, you will turn around and say it won't happen now. By the way I was not one of the seven I was transferred to Swindon and still did not make a first team but like you had played with some great players.
It won't happen very often because managers are not given the time to form a successful young side. Changing the subject you mentioned Ian Twitchen I remember him playing for Torquay in the Reserves when a youth player in the seventies a very good player but in those days Torquay had a reserve side full of quality young players were you one of them. A couple o ex-City youths one a keeper can't remember his name at the moment who went on to better things. I am sure there is young British players out there itching to play for sides like Torquay and there should be more local players if they are good enough to get that chance.
Just checked it was Jock Mahony the keeper.

MidDevon wrote:Most youth coaches at professional clubs quickly realise, when looking at their squad at each age range, that only 1/2 to 1 a year stand a cats hell in chance of a long term professional contract. All of the other players are simply there to make up the places and to form a team. Hopefully that team is just about good enough to support the 1/2 to 1 player each year who may just make it.

I completely agree MidDevon (Winkleigh?) and when I was lucky enough to be in the Torquay United youth team way back when I was definitely there to make up the numbers as they were not allowed to play with 4. I am though a little bemused that in these days of supposedly highly developed youth training schemes so few break through into the professional game. 4 of the youth team squad I played in went on to play in the Football League - Phil Sandercock, Ian Twitchin, Pat Roche, and Robbie Robbins - accumulating over 600 games between them and one of them in the top level and an international. Only one was an apprentice professional Phil Sandercock, one of only two at the club at that time, and the rest were amateurs.

I don't know at all why that is. I would have thought that if 4 came out of an amateur youth team training on Tuesday and Thursday evenings at Plainmoor having done a full day at work or college, then more would come out of the present organised youth training schemes. I read with interest the accounts on another forum BTPR where youth training is a regular feature, but I don't think anything I have read answers it.

I know competition is mighty fierce to break into the professional game, but surely it always has been? In my day, a long long time ago, more kids played football than do now. We didn't have the modern day distractions. It was jumpers down on the ground and kick the ball around until the bats started swooping!

I know some would say it is because the standard is higher now. I'm not convinced it is. Sure the game is different and it is difficult to compare teams across a 50 years period. But many other posters on here have reported on the brilliant players who were at the club in the 50's and 60's when Torquay were the equivalent then of a leading League 1 club now. Systems may have been different. Tactics certainly as subs were only introduced in the late 1960's and then it was only one sub. Skill levels .... no lower I would say. The ball may have been different but you were still expected to kick and trap with both feet, head the ball effectively, and be able to find a team mate with a pass.

As Brian Clough would say, "It's a simple game".

you could argue of course that the money should instead be spent on a decent scouting network.....

Its always worth remembering that 1 x Bobby Olejnik (who arrived free and was sold on for a 6 figure sum) was worth more to the club than a whole year of season-ticket sales...and he came for free from struggling (at the time) Falkirk

...and then there was O'Kane, playing for Coleraine in the Northern Ireland premier, having returned home from being released by Everton

Yep it is the case, Chelsea foundation have just got to the end of their first season and Arsenal start in September, but it must be understood these are in the main educational courses first and foremost, the students do play, as said in a national U19 league, and both Chelsea and Arsenal students will get the opportunity to play at Stamford Bridge or The Emirates and go to their respective training grounds, the chance any of them make the progression into to professional football is slim.

However it's the name that will attract the lads, If you have the choice of TUFC link up at Paington, ECFC at Teignmouth or PAFC at South Devon college, or Chelsea/Arsenal, which courses are the lads more likely to go for.

As for the Torquay Academy, the lads in the full academy, not development centres do not pay a monthly fee, the club couldn't charge a fee due to Football League funding, the lads only pay for their kits, yes of course their is a certain amount of making up the numbers, but our club is not taking anywhere near enough from the U16's into the youth team set up, 5-7 players at least should make the step up per year (Exeter do) we're barely taking 1-2 through.

Whilst I fully believe in the need to have a fully functional youth set up, under the circumstances our club now finds itself. I personally would consider dropping down to a cat 4 set up, and work with late developers only, that's something we've been pretty good at and I think would cost less.

Most youth coaches at professional clubs quickly realise, when looking at their squad at each age range, that only 1/2 to 1 a year stand a cats hell in chance of a long term professional contract. All of the other players are simply there to make up the places and to form a team. Hopefully that team is just about good enough to support the 1/2 to 1 player each year who may just make it.

At younger ages clubs like Torquay even charge the players parents to play and make them feel happy about it by calling it an "academy" and let those poor kids walk around the pitch at half time once or twice a season

I am not sure what other options professional clubs have to be honest, but the system is nothing short of cruel to both players and their over optimistic parents.

forevertufc wrote:Wouldn't get to excited, most of our youth team will be stood outside Sainsbury's selling costal windows ( other window companies are available )with in 18 months like some gone before. I wish it was the case that our club can see the bigger picture with players 8-11 years old, sadly they can't our club releases far to many from the academy, and can't always attract the best in the first place.

Yes the academy has been going for 8 years, and as yet not one single player has gone through the academy into the first team, all those who have, have come to the club via exit trials and the college link up course, none of which to date have been retained by the club, and now the club has a huge rival in the area, Chelsea foundation are running the same course at South Dartmoor, and Arsenal soccer schools are opening in Newton Abbot college in September to do the same BTEC/football academy course, most of last years released U16's joined the Chelsea course, one player already had trails with two League club who was let go last term, I've told this season released U16's are signing up with the Chelsea course, they play in a national U19 league.

Anyway this all might be immaterial, if the club receives £150k from EPPP funding, they have to match it to receive that money, I would suggest if there is no take over, new investment, our whole youth department is under threat of closure.

Really? Well that's f*cking depressing =Z
As if competing with the Gargs and Greeks weren't hard enough having Chelsea AND Arsenal setting up on the doorstep makes the whole thing utterly pointless.
Perhaps we would be better off scrapping the Youth team and using a bit of the money saved to have a proper reserve team instead and see if we can take some of the Chelsea/Arsenal lads that aren't good enough for them when they finish their course at 18.

Wouldn't get to excited, most of our youth team will be stood outside Sainsbury's selling costal windows ( other window companies are available )with in 18 months like some gone before. I wish it was the case that our club can see the bigger picture with players 8-11 years old, sadly they can't our club releases far to many from the academy, and can't always attract the best in the first place.

Yes the academy has been going for 8 years, and as yet not one single player has gone through the academy into the first team, all those who have, have come to the club via exit trials and the college link up course, none of which to date have been retained by the club, and now the club has a huge rival in the area, Chelsea foundation are running the same course at South Dartmoor, and Arsenal soccer schools are opening in Newton Abbot college in September to do the same BTEC/football academy course, most of last years released U16's joined the Chelsea course, one player already had trails with two League club who was let go last term, I've told this season released U16's are signing up with the Chelsea course, they play in a national U19 league.

Anyway this all might be immaterial, if the club receives £150k from EPPP funding, they have to match it to receive that money, I would suggest if there is no take over, new investment, our whole youth department is under threat of closure.

So, it's that time of year again where players futures at the club are gradually decided. There is no doubting that CH wants a major clear out of under-performing pro's.

However, the Youth Team is now starting to produce proper prospects which is a joy to see. When the academy reformed back around 8 years ago it immediately gets filled with players who, with all due respect to them, have normally been rejected by Plymouth and Exeter. Over time local lads see the benefit of the system and we are now producing local talent that hasn't been poached off other clubs.

Take Lavercombe for example, 18 year-old Torquay boy from Torquay Boys' Grammar School. Neal Osborne, 15 year-old from the same school (sold to Southampton for around 50k). It is when the academy catches players at a young age i.e. between 8 and 11 that the club sees the bigger benefits in the future.

SO, out of this years graduating scholars, who deserves a contract? We've seen Ives, Odofin, Prynn and Lavercombe feature for the first team this season which unfortunately last years graduates Chaney and Parcell haven't managed yet. There is some talk of Josh Lynch being a handy player but is another lightweight midfield graduate what we need?

Thoughts?