Torquay United Fans Forum

So, one game and some second hand opinions, not really a stronger case, if I'm honest.

Give it 10 games against a variety of opponents and then we can draw some meaningful conclusions. We might have just lost 3-1 away (and missed a pen) against a side that gets 120 points this season and breaks all sorts of records. We might look back on that game and think we did really well, given that everyone else lost 6-0. If we go to town on Welling and beat them 4-0 with exactly the same side as played at Gateshead, then what, suddenly we'll have the best midfield in the division? No, of course not. Let's give the team a fair crack of the whip before we start chopping and changing things around and/or writing off a whole squad as "not very good".

Pea wrote: This is the trouble with basing wide ranging and long term opinions on one game. If you'd have seen us against Exeter, you'd have a totally different view.

That is why I didn't post my view after the Weymouth game. But it sounds as though we gave a similar performance on Saturday, so felt the time was right to voice concerns.

I certainly think that a midfield 3 away from home, might be something to explore. To me, it was pretty obvious that, the team fielded on Saturday would be vulnerable to any pace, over-run in midfield and with Benyon continuing his run of not scoring in all but 3 of, what feels like, around 100 games we would be toothless in attack.

Richards to bolster the midfield, may at least help the team defensively, whilst sacrificing Benyon wouldn't make a scrap of difference - he is just as unlikely to score when he playing than when he is not! So give the place to someone else.

However, we are playing with a defence of Rice, Tonge, MacDonald, Downes, Cruise. It's shocking. A keeper who seems unable to instill any sense of confidence into his defenders, slow full-backs and centre-half. Poor MacDonald, having to carry one of the most inept backlines in our history.

We just have too many players that in an ideal world, we would not have that whatever Hargreaves does, it is still going to be painful to watch.

Horses for courses really.

I am sure that on most occasions, particularly at home, we will go with what is clearly Greavsie's favoured line up of 4-4-2. But there may well be occasions, particularly away from home, when in deference to the opposition we need to bolster our midfield with a 4-5-1 to counter their strengths and I think Saturday's game may well have been one of those occasions .... too late now though.

I do worry that we are not combative enough when we play a central pairing of Young and Harding though. I think Richards is an improvement on both of them in this particular aspect of the game. Clearly we need Young in the side for his creativity but we have been told by enough Argyle fans who let's face it have seen a lot more of him in action that Greavsie, that "Young can only play in a midfield three". I don't necessarily agree with that, but I am concerned that Harding may not be the ideal partner for him in a 4-4-2. I haven't seen enough of young Richards yet to know whether he could be better than him in partnership with Young.

As for our full backs, I wasn't at the game, but based on the highlights and the Radio Devon commentary ... did either Tonge or Cruise actually make a tackle all afternoon? They seemed to constantly back off and back off ... until the winger either got a shot off or put a cross in. Surely the whole point of being a full back is to stop that happening????

Although, he couldn't do much with either the second and third goals, I thought Rice should have done better with the first one .... did it even go in though? He was also shaky in one or two other moments in the game and didn't exactly inspire confidence.

On a positive note, I really like a lot of our forward players and think we will cause some damage to some teams. The likes of Bowman, Briscoe, Chapell, Cameron and Ajala are all dangerous opponents at this level and if we can get Young doing what he does best, pulling the strings, I am sure there are plenty of goals in this team ... which will be a refreshing change from last year!!!

I do hope Greavsie tweaks the team for tomorrow. I would like to see three, maybe four changes made, with the likes of Ives, Richards, Ajala and Chapell given their chance to start.

There is a long way to go and I am sure Greavsie will add to the squad in time. The very fact that Cruise has only been offered a month to month contract, after "trialling" for 5 weeks, suggests to me that he knows that he isn't the answer to our problems in that position. Of course, we may already have the answer "in the building" (to quote a recent Manager of ours) in young Ives but we will only find the answer to that one out if he is given his chance.

JamieE wrote:I only saw one pre-season friendly this year and that was against Weymouth and it was clear from that performance we are not good enough to go out with two strikers and try and dominate games because we aren't very good!

Our full backs are poor, our centre halves are so slow, our midfielders are non-existent with no creativity, we have too many ineffective strikers and we still have Martin Rice in goal. You can't expect this team to be performing to a level where we are going to Gateshead and winning, they aren't good enough.

Hargreaves' signings have been fine and his hands are tied as to who he plays at the minute but what he is doing with the squad is naive. Our defence are individually poor but they're going to be exposed by a shape whereby we have two attacking wingers and a young midfielder alongside a hopeless journeyman - absolutely no cover. Playing Young in a two man midfield with Harding is like playing a young Eunan O'Kane with Chris McPhee. And all this to accommodate a second striker who at the minute is either Elliot Benyon or Ashley Yeoman, neither will score more than 5 goals each.

Courtney Richards needs to come into midfield and provide some bite and cover to a poor defence. We will continue to be so open and woeful until this happens. It may not be what fans want to hear or see but we need to be able to compete and scrap. If we go out and beat Welling 1-0 on Tuesday playing the same team, nothing will have changed. Playing 3 in midfield doesn't necessarily mean you are any less attacking, it can allow you to compete, dominate a game more and allow our wingers, clearly the best part of our squad, to express themselves.

This is the trouble with basing wide ranging and long term opinions on one game. If you'd have seen us against Exeter, you'd have a totally different view.

I don't think 4-5-1 (maybe more 4-4-1-1) is a bad idea necessarily. It'll allow us to have Ajala on the pitch. He does everything better than everyone else, so he'll add passing, tackling and attacking intent. Quite why you'd not play him when you've got him available is a mystery to me. Same with Ives. To quote an old advert, why have cotton when you can have silk?

There is one other factor people seem to be ignoring, and that's the way other teams play.

Have a look in the non league paper this week. I think Gateshead were one of only THREE teams to play anything other than 4-4-2, and even one of those played 4-4-1-1. Yes, we were outplayed there on sat but most teams will be matching us this season. That's not to say I don't think there are issues - I had held out some hope that Harding may rediscover form and become the player I remember from the last time we were in the conference (and I suppose he still could) but at the moment that looks unlikely.

Cruise hasn't learnt a thing in three years. The way he turned his back on the play for their second goal, good shot as it was, was disgusting. He may get one more game but he surely can't play on sat if that form continues.

Personally I feel that if we can sort our defence the need to play three in midfield would be negated. When pearse returns I would be tempted to play macdonald at RB. He can defend even if he offers little going forward - a bit like te days of playing Robertson there under buckle. Ives would need to come in for cruise, and if he can't cut it we would need to beg/borrow/steal a loanee. Having a more solid base will allow our attacking players to play without the fear of conceding that we had last year.

JamieE wrote: Why does playing three in midfield have to be two holding midfielders?

You are right, it doesn't, it can be one or two holding midfielders, either way, if we cant play two up top home to Welling, we should pack our bags and give up now.

brucie wrote:Arcadia - trotting out the same old line about Benyon and Cruise is beyond boring. Neither was playing in midfield yesterday which was clearly the main fault with the team looking at the highlights. I know that Hargreaves hands are tied but we are woefully short in the centre of the park.
Gateshead just ran through the middle of us like we didn't exist. Sure Gateshead's second and third goals were good strikes but the bloke who scored them was unchallenged.
As has been said it looked like Hargreaves got his tactics completely wrong and basically went into the game trading off against the opposition to see who could outscore the other.
Harding looks a liability and clearly cannot play there alongside Young (at least away from home) - actually Mansell had a decent game yesterday and I guess that had Hargreaves been able to get rid of Harding he would have kept his former captain.
For all the stick that Mansell got he is a far better midfielder than Harding.
Goal a game Rice is still a liability - (look at the first goal yesterday) and he followed it up with another almighty howler. He also seems to have overdosed on pork pies during the summer as he looks like the weeble man.
Saying there cannot be alot wrong seems a bit stupid looking at the Gateshead highlights.

Yes I may be boring but it is clear to see that by a player dropping off the front it changes the formation at danger times during the game making it a five man midfield.
Mansell will be missed, Rice is not a number 1 at this standard and Harding is not going to get better we think a like see Your boring as well!

If you watched the highlights you should have noticed Cruise did not get tight enough to their winger and he is not going to get better.
Perhaps I should have said Cruise could not get tight enough!
Cruise should not have been resigned and Benyon should not have returned to the club last season whoops I've said it again.

forevertufc wrote:Absolutely no disrespect to welling meant, but if we're talking about playing two holding midfielders at home to Welling, then pack this up now and save the misery.

Why does playing three in midfield have to be two holding midfielders?

I think I will give it more than 1 game (which might prove to be the most difficult away game of the season) before asking Hargreaves to change all his preseason planning.

Arcadia - trotting out the same old line about Benyon and Cruise is beyond boring. Neither was playing in midfield yesterday which was clearly the main fault with the team looking at the highlights. I know that Hargreaves hands are tied but we are woefully short in the centre of the park.
Gateshead just ran through the middle of us like we didn't exist. Sure Gateshead's second and third goals were good strikes but the bloke who scored them was unchallenged.
As has been said it looked like Hargreaves got his tactics completely wrong and basically went into the game trading off against the opposition to see who could outscore the other.
Harding looks a liability and clearly cannot play there alongside Young (at least away from home) - actually Mansell had a decent game yesterday and I guess that had Hargreaves been able to get rid of Harding he would have kept his former captain.
For all the stick that Mansell got he is a far better midfielder than Harding.
Goal a game Rice is still a liability - (look at the first goal yesterday) and he followed it up with another almighty howler. He also seems to have overdosed on pork pies during the summer as he looks like the weeble man.
Saying there cannot be alot wrong seems a bit stupid looking at the Gateshead highlights.

It is and always will be the Managers call and I fully accept he must and will do as he sees it. I just feel we had our best spell last year when we had the lad on loan from Leicester adding an extra body into the thick of things.

There should not be any need to panic as if Chris Hargreaves takes notice of everything on this web site he will not know what to do.
For some unknown reason Benyon and Cruise have got a starting place when more obvious choices were available. The important thing for the club is to get behind the players on Tuesday night. I hope that Hargreaves is not stubborn as he might stick with the same line up.

Levi is the obvious choice at left back and I would play a player who can drop off the front, if another midfield player is needed at times. There cannot be a lot wrong as some of the pre-season games we looked good, where the selection came from on Saturday I do not know.
Come on Chris sort it out.

Absolutely no disrespect to welling meant, but if we're talking about playing two holding midfielders at home to Welling, then pack this up now and save the misery.

I only saw one pre-season friendly this year and that was against Weymouth and it was clear from that performance we are not good enough to go out with two strikers and try and dominate games because we aren't very good!

Our full backs are poor, our centre halves are so slow, our midfielders are non-existent with no creativity, we have too many ineffective strikers and we still have Martin Rice in goal. You can't expect this team to be performing to a level where we are going to Gateshead and winning, they aren't good enough.

Hargreaves' signings have been fine and his hands are tied as to who he plays at the minute but what he is doing with the squad is naive. Our defence are individually poor but they're going to be exposed by a shape whereby we have two attacking wingers and a young midfielder alongside a hopeless journeyman - absolutely no cover. Playing Young in a two man midfield with Harding is like playing a young Eunan O'Kane with Chris McPhee. And all this to accommodate a second striker who at the minute is either Elliot Benyon or Ashley Yeoman, neither will score more than 5 goals each.

Courtney Richards needs to come into midfield and provide some bite and cover to a poor defence. We will continue to be so open and woeful until this happens. It may not be what fans want to hear or see but we need to be able to compete and scrap. If we go out and beat Welling 1-0 on Tuesday playing the same team, nothing will have changed. Playing 3 in midfield doesn't necessarily mean you are any less attacking, it can allow you to compete, dominate a game more and allow our wingers, clearly the best part of our squad, to express themselves.